help wanted!Looking perfect training dog

**dubravko** · 01-24-2005, 08:38 AM

I was on some breeder site (www.sunydayskennel.com), and found there a perfect breed for training!?Are the belgians best breed for a training?
I like Youre opinion for that breeder, and Your suggestions for buying Belgian shepherd puupy...

**jennylynn** · 01-24-2005, 08:59 PM

I don't know much about the breed, but I checked out the breeder's website.
They have beautiful dogs. And while I think that it's important to have breeding dogs prove that they can work, it's also important that they are proven in the show ring to have the right conformation and that they've had all of the necessary health tests.
I didn't see anywhere on the site that the dogs are health tested or that they've been proven in the ring. It could be that the breeder just didn't list it, so if you're considering buying a pup from them, make sure to ask.

Here's a link to a site that can put you on the right path of what to look for in a breeder:
http://www.danemist.com/ABCs/buyingapurebredpuppy.html
It was geared towards Great Danes (as it was written by a Great Dane breeder), but most of it applies to any breed. Please make sure to do your research before you buy from a breeder.

And keep in mind, there are a lot of shelters out there that, believe it or not, have purebred dogs like Belgian shepherds. There are also rescue groups out there that dedicate themselves to rescuing a specific breed. I did a quick search on Google, and the first page that it pulled up was this:
http://belgianrescuelist.ambercreek.net/

There are a lot of resources out there that can help you in your search. Just make sure to do your homework! :wink:

**dubravko** · 01-25-2005, 02:43 AM

thank you, I vill check boath suggestion

**bob2** · 12-07-2005, 09:12 PM

The answer to your question is absolutely NO....Contact someone who trains many breeds including belgums and you will find your answers as to which breeds are generally easier to train..(it also depends on what you are training for).
Also you may want to study the the constrasting opinions of people who breed dogs with work ethic in mind verses show qualities as there are heated debates on this subject. For example we breed and train Border collies primarily for work ethic and temperment and have found that dogs bred for show have not faired equally in this regard. Although you can find show quality Bc's that herd good it is not the norm and if you take a look at what the Show folks have done to the German Shepherd you will will understand..

bob2 good luck

**bob2** · 12-09-2005, 02:20 AM

i WOULD NEVER DEFINE IT AS BAD i WOULD HOWEVER SAY THAT WHEN A PERSON CHANGES THE CHARACTERISTICS THAT THE BREED WAS ORIGIONALLY BRED FOR YOU THEN HAVE A NEW BREED WHICH IS NOT REPRESENTIVE OF THE PRIOR ONE .. THEN WHY NOT GIVE IT A NEW NAME AND CALL IT FOR EXAMPLE A SHOW DOG? IT JUST DEPENDS ON WHICH SIDE OF THE FENCE YOU ARE ON.......

HAVE A NICE DAY..

BOB2

**bob2** · 12-09-2005, 08:48 AM

As a breeder I would suggest that you consider the fact that acquiring a rescue/shelter dog involves ceretain risks. 1st you mosy likely will have little or no health information on the dogs health status of HIP DISPLASIA,ELBOE,EYE AND HEALTH HISTORY OF PARENTS. Certain breeds are more prone to particular types of diseases that a good breeder provides health checks for before breeding and selling pups.
If for example you buy a dog with HD your dog will suffer structurely and have to be manage for the pain that it will live through for the rest of it's life. I would suggest doing research on the issues your desired breed commonly developes and require health screens on the dog you acquire from the seller/breeder. Another aspect is the temperment and work ethic you might want in a working dog such as a Belgum,you will find issues most likely if you dogs parents had issues in these areas.

Just a few points to think about.

bob2

**celtechfarms** · 12-09-2005, 08:51 PM

Are you suggesting that adopting a dog is not a good idea? I have run rottie rescue and can tell you adopting can be more rewarding and a better match then going to a breeder. Our adult dogs are often more loving for thier experiance and that rescue dogs are no harder to train then a breeders dog. I know that a breeder is good for health, but even a well bred dog with certified health can still grow up with problems, espically if the owner doesn't knwo what they are doing. I think its a horrible thing to say don't adopt, there are alot of dogs out there needing homes. My philosiphy is, if your a breeder of pure bred dogs then don't breed until you have buyers lined up, otherwise your just adding to the problem.

Please, please consider adopting, provide a home for a dog here and now, instead of a dog that does not currently need to be born. I the USA alone over 3000 rottwielers are currently in shelters, 3000, thats a huge number and more and more breeders add to that every day.

I'm not mad and please dont take this in the wrong context, I'm just extermly shocked and agree with the breeding motto up here, if you don't rescue, don't breed, if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem.

**bob2** · 12-09-2005, 09:41 PM

PLEASE DO NOT READ ANY HOSTILITY IN MY RESPONSE AS IT IS PURELY FOR THE SAKE OF HEALTHY DEBATE AND EDUCATION>>

Actually I NEVER said or implied that you should not adopt...I believe I pointed out a few pros for buying a dog with health/history behind it as there can be substantiated benefits that are not available otherwise. In many venues especially working dog venues it becomes the best gamble. I have been both breeding and establishing rescues for over twenty years and have experience and documention that provides pros and cons for both options and deal with a lot of rescue folks who are not only ignorant (as in uninformed) of the advantages of buying a well breed and well socialized and healthy dog but actually have the mentality to push idealodgy that seeking a dog from a breeder is evil to the cause. I bet you know what I mean! ;')

By the way my training bussiness thrives on rehabing rescue dogs.. There are many people who should not own dogs and getting dogs that already have issues to include unknown health issues and emotional issues can and do make the dogs plight worse in many many cases... Especially if the new owner has little experience, take little responsibility, or lack education in rehabing,training, and managing such a dog. So in esense not all rescue folks do good service to the dog and well intention folks who recieve dogs fromm these or any source are not part of the solution they are in fact part of the problem. Would you like for me to explain this fact in further detail?

On the other hand as we all know there are breeders who should not only be breeding dogs but should not own them as well..There should be a purpose of bettering the breed and it's conditons I believe in the desire to breed.
So where do we find balance... I believe in honest education.

I am well experienced to debate both sides of the issue..I just wish everyone would take the time to educate themselves and provide honest educated information to others without the one sided agenda that often provides a great disservice to both the human and the dog...\ But that is life and politics is it not.. personnally from my perspective there is room and need for both options. If you have ever seen what happens to a herding dog that has HD you might understand the need to purchase/seek a dog that has been screened so that you reduce the chances. I tend to put the" dog in the bad situation " syndrom blame on individuals that are irresponsible..
and that includes breeders, rescues/shelters, trainers pet stores, ect..

No one group is innocent of wrong doing......And believe me I (and others who are not blind to the occurance) have seen it ,documnented it, and educate people on these issues as part of professionial,responsible, and honest care of K9's.

We also do our part as guardians to strive for well bred dogs that go to people who are screened to carry on that good stewardship. And educate folks on the reason for the need of good breeding practices. If more people were adequately educated when seeking to acquire a dog ( especially from (rescues and shelters) they might think twice about what they are getting into. By the way I might mention that there are also shelters and rescues that a do a great amount of disservice in there attempts to better the plight of homeless dogs, are you aware of them by any chance. I am, I do quite abit of rescue work ( and documentation) and the stories are many.. If you would ever like to hear some just let me know. Sometime doing things for dog primarily in the name of love is not so good for the dog..

again my position is to educate and point out the pros and cons of both sides of the coin, ...IS YOURS? I somehow do not get that feeling ....

bob2

goodday

**kerryclair** · 12-10-2005, 01:06 AM

I do not feel that Celtech was doing anything different than you are here - stating her opinions on the issue. Frankly, I think that unless you have worked in a shelter and held perfectly good dogs as they were put down becauxse no homes could be found, you'd never be able to breed a dog. I do understand the whole pro and con issue...but the fact is that we have millions of dogs and cats put to sleep every year because of lack of homes and way, way, way too many irresponsible breeders. Any joe schmo with a male and a female dog thinks he can sell puppies and make money and then you have all the amish people in PA chruning out "purebreds". There is not enough education by SELLERS to BUYERS about what they are buying and there is not enough research done by buyers, who simply look in a paper and go and buy a dog from a "reputable" breeder.

It is difficult to really support breeding when so many great dogs are killed in this country every year.

That said, I like my purebred dogs...I don't want to see purebreds become a thing of the past. All of mine are also rescued. What we need is more education and some regulations on breeding to make sure all breeding is done in a responsible way.

**smiffy** · 12-10-2005, 05:20 AM

hi there
i dont think there is such a thing as the perfect dog for training but you can look to breed traits for an over view of the breed but still you shouldnt use the breed traits for 'this is what my dog will be like and will do'.
for example i have two dalmatians and the moment ppl see that i keep dals they say "oh they are scatty arnt they" well one is,she bounces around every where but she is young and my other dal is like a sea cow :) soft and gentle and takes her time with everything.
when you mentioned the shepard were you thinking of their intelligence?

like i said do some research on your chosen dogs, and please consider a rescue as has been mentioned above there are thousands of dogs waiting homes. if you are in the uk i can point you in the direction of some shelters.

all the best in your decision,smiffy :)