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  1. #1

    Animal protection is the most noble cause

    I have got empathy for animals since I was a child. When I was growing up, my faith and values changed several times, but my love and empathy for animals never changed. Now I already know that animal protection is the most noble cause.

    Below is a brief summary of my animal protection principles.


    We must protect animals.

    Like human beings, animals have consciousness and feeling, and can experience suffering and happiness.

    No one wants suffering, and neither do animals. This is a sufficient reason to protect animals.

    We do not advocate "protecting plants".

    Plants do not have brain or nerve, so they never have any consciousness or feeling at all.

    Therefore, in terms of morality, it is not necessary to protect plants.

    We do not advocate "protecting mosquitoes".

    Vertebrate animals, especially mammals and birds, have developed advanced nervous systems, therefore having strong feeling and consciousness.

    However, most invertebrates, such as insects, only have a very simple nervous system, which means that their feeling and consciousness are very weak.

    We must not kill animals, even though animals keep killing each other.

    If a child who is three or four years old killed a man, you cannot condemn the child, because it knows nothing. Similarly, animals should not be condemned for killing others, because animals have low intelligence and cannot understand that their behaviors bring suffering to other individuals. In fact, many animals have the same intelligence level as a child.

    However, adult humans' intelligence is high enough for them to know that their behaviors may bring suffering to other individuals. Therefore, for adult humans, doing such behaviors is obviously evil.

    We must not follow the law of nature.

    The natural law that allows the stronger ones to prey upon the weaker ones runs counter to human morality. If not, there would be no need to protect the disadvantaged groups.

    The laws of nature are brutal, but human morality is empathetic. Human beings must fight against the brutality and stop the killing.

    We should be more concerned about animals than people.

    The suffering and misery faced by animals are far more severe than people's hardship. At least the people are not being murdered or tortured.

    Moreover, humans can be good or evil, but animals are all innocent and lovable, just like children.

    Rich people and elites have strong power, but always squander the power on luxurious lives and meaningless faiths. I will be the owner of power, and use the power to make the greatest contribution to animal protection.

  2. #2

    Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

    Well, that's an unusual and interesting first thread! I'm glad that you take animals and their welfare to heart.

    I would agree with much of what you have written, but not all of it. I will just cite a few points where perhaps you need to refine your thinking about such matters. But that doesn't diminish my respect and admiration for you and what you have written in the post above.

    "Plants do not have brain or nerve, so they never have any consciousness or feeling at all." This is a common assertion, and one with which I as a vegetarian would be comfortable. The truth is, however, that scientific research is increasingly showing that plants do have sophisticated neural systems. This makes vegetarians and vegans uncomfortable - including myself - but we have to live with that. The research started with the work of Cleve Backster as far back the 1960s, although some scientists queried his results at the time. For a simple account, see: http://www.redicecreations.com/speci...cbackster.html But the research has moved on a lot since then, with more hard-headed scientists agreeing that plants do possess neural systems, sometimes even sophisticated ones. Here are two examples: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...niel-chamovitz and https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-01-...k-about-plants

    "However, most invertebrates, such as insects, only have a very simple nervous system, which means that their feeling and consciousness are very weak." You may well be right, but how weak is weak? Where do you draw the line? Does only medium to severe pain count? Is slight pain or awareness not of concern? It is a complex moral issue.

    "Similarly, animals should not be condemned for killing others, because animals have low intelligence and cannot understand that their behaviors bring suffering to other individuals. In fact, many animals have the same intelligence level as a child." Some animals, for example members of the cat family (wild and domestic), are what is called "obligate carnivores". In other words, they need meat in order to survive. Dogs, wolves, and other canines are mostly carnivore for the same reason, although they can and do need a small proportion of plant matter as well for a balanced diet. So it is a question of necessity in many cases, rather than of intelligence. You state that "animals have low intelligence.....the same intelligence level as a child." The latest research shows that some animals are actually far more intelligent than we previously thought. I will not give a long list of links here, but if you are interested you can go to this page: https://do-animals-have-souls.info/further-reading.html There is a list of articles about animal intelligence there. Animal intelligence is not to be compared to a child, as we are talking about different species and therefore different ways of thinking.

    "The suffering and misery faced by animals are far more severe than people's hardship. At least the people are not being murdered or tortured." The welfare of animals is a topic very close to my heart, but I fear that your statement is too sweeping. People are being murdered and tortured every day. It is a sad fact, which reading any newspaper or news website shows. Let me stress that I share, very strongly, your concern for animal welfare. But any suffering and cruelty is to be opposed - regardless whether it against animals or humans. We cannot make distinctions.

    "Moreover, humans can be good or evil, but animals are all innocent and lovable, just like children." Well, I would say that all humans are a mix of good and bad qualities, but in greatly varying proportions; some have much more good than bad, others the other way round. But no-one is 100% good (that would be Divine) or 100% bad. As for animals, yes their souls have an innocent quality, I would agree; they don't cause world wars, massive pollution, create weapons which can destroy the world, etc. But personally I wouldn't compare them with children. Different species of beings have different qualities, both with regard to intelligence and spiritual awareness, so to say that one type of intelligence or spirituality is "superior" or "inferior", "like a child" or like an adult human, is missing the point about parallel but different lines of development.

    I would not normally reply to a first thread at such length. Please take it as a compliment that I have done so! The world needs more people like you! Thank you for starting this thread and I send you my warmest best wishes. You are welcome to contact me via PM or my website if you feel the need.
    Last edited by LPC; 01-06-2019 at 01:47 PM.

  3. #3

    Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

    Those are some very viable points.
    Look Elegant. Save Elephants. The Elegant Ellie.
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  4. #4

    Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

    LPC

    HI, i'm the OP. i forgot my password so i registered a new account.

    the claim that plants also have nerves has not yet been proved by sufficient evidence. and even if they do have nerves, apparently they have not yet developped an advanced nervous system to enable them to feel. so i think we don't need to protect plants in the way we protect animals.

    also, i still think that animals' low intelligence can be a valid reason to justify their killing behaviors. most animals do have an intelligence level equal to or lower than a child. therefore, both animals and children are not intelligent enough to be responsible for their own actions.

    and as for humans, what i mean is that while animals are all innocent and need protection, some humans are not. i come from china where there is no animal welfare laws. and i have seen many cases where animals were deliberately tortured to death and the people who did such a crime received no punishment at all. those people not only do not deserve any protection, but also in my opionion, do not even deserve to live.

  5. #5

    Six Principles

    I have got empathy for animals since I was a child. When I was growing up, my faith and values changed several times, but my love and empathy for animals never changed. Now I already know that animal protection is the most noble cause. Below is a brief summary of my animal protection principles.

    Firstly, we must protect animals.

    Like human beings, animals have consciousness and feeling, and can experience suffering and happiness. This is a sufficient reason to protect animals.

    Secondly, there is no need to advocate "protecting plants".

    Plants do not have brain or nerve, so they never have any consciousness or feeling at all. Therefore, it is not morally obligatory to protect plants.

    Thirdly, there is no need to advocate "protecting mosquitoes".

    Vertebrate animals, especially mammals and birds, have developed advanced nervous systems, therefore having strong feeling and consciousness. However, most invertebrates, such as insects, only have a very simple nervous system, which means that their feeling and consciousness are very weak.

    Fourthly, human beings must not kill animals, even though animals keep killing each other.

    If a child who is three or four years old killed a man, you cannot condemn the child, because it knows nothing. Similarly, animals should not be condemned for killing others, because animals have low intelligence and cannot understand that their behaviors bring suffering to other individuals. In fact, many animals have the same intelligence level as a child. However, adult humans' intelligence is high enough for them to know that their behaviors may bring suffering to other individuals. Therefore, adult humans are obviously evil, when they do such behaviors.

    Fifthly, human beings must fight against the law of nature.

    The natural law that allows the stronger ones to prey upon the weaker ones runs counter to human morality. If not, there would be no need to help the disadvantaged groups. The laws of nature are brutal, but human morality is empathetic. Human beings must fight against the brutality and prevent the killings.

    Sixthly, we should be more concerned about animals than people.

    The suffering and misery faced by animals are far more severe than people's hardship. At least the people are not being murdered or tortured. Besides, humans can be good or evil, but animals are all innocent and lovable.
    Last edited by kaichen1125; 01-28-2019 at 01:01 AM.

  6. #6

    Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

    By the way I've modified the article a bit - see post no. 5 above.
    Last edited by LPC; 01-28-2019 at 05:08 AM.

  7. #7

    Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

    Those are some very viable points.

  8. #8

    Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

    Kaichen, a warm welcome back!

    Please note the following two points:

    1. If you ever lose your password in future, please do not create a duplicate account. Strictly speaking, this is against forum rules, but I understand that you may not have looked at the "lost password" facility. This is the same on almost all forums. Basically, when you go to the log-in section, you will find the sentence "Forgotten your password? Click here." You then enter the email with which you registered and request that your password be reset. An email is then sent to you, usually within a few minutes. You log in with the new temporary password contained in that email. Once logged in, you are then free to choose any new password of your choosing - but please note it down somewhere and keep it safe.

    2. Please do not create duplicate threads on the same topic. This creates confusion. I have therefore moved your new, revised "declaration" from there to here and I have edited your post no. 6 to reflect this.

    I will not comment any further on your views about plant nerve systems and animal intelligence. Did you read all the links I gave in my original reply? Also, here is another one: http://theconversation.com/global/to...elligence-7837

    Scientific research into animal intelligence is an ongoing topic. I think there are yet more surprises for us down the road...

    Every best wish to you! I look forward to more posts from you on other animal topics.
    Last edited by LPC; 01-28-2019 at 05:20 AM.

  9. #9
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    Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

    Hi Kaichen, this was certainly an interesting read.

    I thought I might throw a few of my own thoughts out there, and I am certainly still interested to hear other people's views. I'm keeping my comments relatively brief (although this has now taken me far longer than I initially planned to type up this response).

    I'm also going to use the numbers of Kaichen's six principles reply on this thread (#5).

    On your first point. I certainly agree. Although I don't believe know of any quantitative measure of how an animal experiences pain, we do know that they can feel pain. So if we can protect them from said suffering and pain, then I believe we should.

    I'm going to refrain from commenting on your points about plants and mosquitoes. I know very little about plant nervous systems, so I don't think I'll add much to the debate. I also agree with LPC with 'how weak is weak?' It is certainly an ethics debate and I think they can be quite challenging to have over text.

    With point four, I don't necessarily agree that because animals have 'low intelligence' that that is to blame. Being compared to humans is probably not a fair hand to deal with all animals. Besides, we are different species with far different cognitive functions and capabilities. Figuratively speaking, humans would be a more intellectually superiour species. Besides, we've been able to create everything which is allowing us to even have this conversation.

    However, comparatively, animals are incredibly intelligent in their own ways. Dolphins and bats are capable of hearing a significantly broader range than people. The vision which insects have is far superior to humans in detecting incoming threats. And a hawk can spot a rabbit in the grass from kilometers away. So I think if you want to use animal intelligence as an argument point, I would maybe be more specific about how they compare.

    Bringing back to your original point, should we kill animals? This certainly depends. Do I necessarily believe in recreational hunting? Probably not. But that is more likely to being raised in a country where this doesn't occur a lot. If I was raised in another county, then my views may be different. Should we kill animals who were bred for the purpose? Well if the measures are taken to limit stress and pain, then maybe we can. I know in Australia, abbatoirs are kept under pretty strict conditions. Staff are trained to handle animals in ways that limit stress, whilst the slaughter process is aimed at being as quick as possible. This RSPCA page discusses the different standards if anybody is interested. https://kb.rspca.org.au/what-is-the-...toirs_478.html

    Your point linking should we kill animals with animal intelligence, I don't agree with. Animal's don't kill other animals because they are unintelligent. And simply saying the sole reason they kill other animals is because they are apparently 'unintelligent' is not correct. Hence, because humans 'are intelligent', we should not recreate this killing behaviour because the only reason animals do so is because they aren't intelligent? Is that a correct view of your point?

    Point five I will tend to agree with you.

    Point six, on the other hand, I can't say I do. "The suffering and misery faced by animals are far more severe than people's hardship", is what you wrote. Where in scientific literature can you show that animal suffering is greater than humans? I would nearly argue it is reversed. Animals are incredibly tough! Yes they can feel pain, and yes the abuse that some people cause animals is disgusting. No arguement against that. However, they seem to be able to withstand quite a large amount of discomfort. Many animals instrictively do well not showing the pain, but humans are pathetic at doing so. I know many people who have incredible low pain tolerances.

    If you believe we should be caring less about people, then where do you view those people who are being tortured or mistreated? Say, POW or the journalists who were on TIME Magazine being killed whilst simply doing their jobs?

    I don't intend to write this to attack you, although looking back it does seem that way. If anything, I would be very interested to hear you elaborate on some of the points you discussed. I do agree with your overall message. And I do agree that we need to be taking steps to protect animals.

    Also sorry for any grammatical or spelling mistakes. There are very likely some I've missed.
    Hi There, how are you?
    I run a blog aimed at helping pet owners learn about their pets. It's only small at the moment, but the content is honest, well researched and hopefully informative. If you are interested in visiting it, please do. I would love to hear your feedback.
    Click here for my blog: www.vetbag.com

  10. #10

    Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

    Hi LPC, I need to apologize for creating another account again, because somehow I canít receive the email for resetting password. Anyway this time I have saved the password in the note, so this kind of incidents wonít happen again. You can forfeit the previous two accounts. Really sorry about that.

    Hi Wrax

    First, it seems that you misunderstood the word intelligence. The examples you gave have nothing to do with intelligence, but rather ability. Yes, dogs have a better sense of smell, eagles have better eyesight, whales can dive deep, birds can fly. They all have some abilities which humans donít have. But do you really think these abilities have anything to do with intelligence?

    Also, I think you misinterpreted my point regarding animals and humansí killing behaviors. Iím not talking about the reasons why they kill. Obviously one can kill for different reasons, for food, entertainment or something else. But what Iím talking about is whether oneís killing behaviors should be condemned or forgiven. Since adult humans are intelligent and obviously understand that killing brings suffering, their killing behaviors are unforgivable and should be condemned.

    As for humans, Iím not saying that they donít need protection, because obviously humans also have feeling. The thing is, most humans are not being tortured or killed, but animals are being tortured and murdered every single moment. I think animals situation is much worse.

 

 

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