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  1. #11
    wow celtech - the trainer that caused that needs to go back to square one and learn how to train properly - that poor horse :(
    www.irishretrieverrescue.com
    all dalmatian rescue 01255 220 649 (uk)

  2. #12
    It was scary, believe me, if you went into the stall to pick out while she was in there, she would litterally jump on the stall fork and try to kill you and it. And yet the horse had never seen a day of abuse in its life. But personally I think half the problem is people working with horses who have no idea how to communicate with them. Now I may not be the best rider in the world, but put me on the ground with a horse and I can watch them and communicate with them, in a way that puts them at ease and keeps me in a position of control (or at least being able to read the horse to get out of the way if they decide they've had enough.) Its scary to me these people who think they can train a horse like they do a dog. Horses are a hundred times heavier, and if they don't get the right training or mixed signalles like this poor horse had, it just makes a bad situation down right dangerous.

    I have been handed the reins of over a dozen 'dangerous' horses in my life and have yet to meet a truely dangerous horse. As long as you take the time to read them and work with them under their terms, all horses will willingly work for you. Same with dogs. My boy had aggression problems, we trained in a semidominante fashion, no tug of war, play wrestling ended with us pinning him, no teeth on people, ect. Now my girl, all you have to do is look her in the eye and in a low voice growl, 'bad puppy' (yes she three and 100 lbs. almost four) and she'll slink away unhappy, she lives on praise, two diffrent training techniques for two diffrent dogs. I live by the moto, no two animals are alike, and all animals deserve to be trained in a program tailored to them.
    The reason dogs are great is they wag their tails, not their tongues.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by celtechfarms
    Seen the clicker trained horse too....
    she was uncontrolable without knowing exactly how to communicate with her through sound and body language. It was a real shame, it tore her owner apart that she couldn't handle the horse and had to admit that she couldn't handle her. But it was the clicker training that caused her to ignore your verbal commands, no pouch, no obediance.
    I have to respectfully say WHAT RUBBISH! You admit that the owner/trainer didn't have much of a clue & yet you blame a method of training!

    As with any other effective method of training it is capable of relaying inappropriate messages to the animal if the human in charge doesn't understand what it is they are teaching. Just like people often inadvertantly teach their dogs to be aggressive or needy or 'rude'. You don't need a clicker & treats to teach it.

    If only a bad tradesman blames his tools, what sort of tradesman blames other people's tools that they don't even understand how to use?? Do you blame whips when you see a horse that is mortally afraid of them? Do you blame ropes if a horse doesn't tie up well? Do you blame the leash if a dog pulls on it?

  4. #14
    Thanks for everyones help and opinions. I think I am going to buy the book recommended above (or maybe my local library has it) and a few others so I can get a more extensive understanding of the psychology behind clicker training. I want to make sure I can do this before I go out a buying a clicker.
    Blessed Be

    Salem Witch Child

  5. #15
    I bought a clicker from www.jefferspet.com It was only a buck or so but it had "instructions" in it too. But they are TOTALLY different then what the person above said. These instructions said things like one click was a signal to sit, two clicks was to come, three was to lay down, etc etc, etc. I think that's the biggest reason I chose to go against it. I just didn't understand it and if the training method confuses me there was no doubt in my mind it'd confuse the animal I was trying to train.

    Good luck with it! I hope you have more success than I did!

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnotherDogLover
    I bought a clicker from www.jefferspet.com It was only a buck or so but it had "instructions" in it too. But they are TOTALLY different then what the person above said. These instructions said things like one click was a signal to sit, two clicks was to come, three was to lay down, etc etc, etc. I think that's the biggest reason I chose to go against it. I just didn't understand it and if the training method confuses me there was no doubt in my mind it'd confuse the animal I was trying to train.

    Good luck with it! I hope you have more success than I did!
    I know Jeffers. We supply pet shampoo for them. :) Sounds like the instructions they give though are off. I've always heard the click was to mark a good behavior, not to instruct the dog what action to perform. Perhaps since you know these instructions were wrong you can read the book and learn the correct way? I'm not sure if I'll even do it. But I'm willing to give it a try. All my knowledge of training has gotten her this far..which is a lot better than nothing! But I would like her to be better so hopefully this is the way to that goal.
    Blessed Be

    Salem Witch Child

  7. #17
    Just Another Dog Lover:

    It is no wonder you would not be inclined to use clicker training. From those instructions, I would decide not to as well. It would be a nightmare. The clicker is only giving a precise mark on good behavior. The method is really simple, once you have everything in context. I read the book twice before beginning. It is a short book: "Clicker Training For Dogs" by Karen Pryor.

    What it did was take the confusion out of the situation, for Abby. After the good behaviors are marked, the behaviors are labeled with a verbal explanation, or a sign, or body language. The theory is, if you lable it after the dog does it correctly, there is less danger of associating a wrong behavior with a specific command.

    Abby and I worked for 20 minutes today, with no clicker. We do that alot now. She knows what is correct, now, but I do not think we would be this far along if not for the clicker. It also helped me. I am not an experienced trainer, so the precise feedback I could give her helped me to avoid mistakes too. My goal is to work to a level where Abby is mostly working for hugs and verbal praise with treats only once in a while. The clicker is just a starter tool.

  8. #18
    The clicker(or voice signal, whatever) is not positive reinforcement. It is first associated with the +R & then used as a 'bridging signal' to 'mark' the behaviour, as it is often not possible to reinforce the dog in the instant. With a tool like this, you can precisely mark bits of behaviour, giving the animal clear feedback, which is often lacking with other methods of training.

    The other great thing about C/T is that it causes people to focus on the 'right'(positive, good) stuff an animal does, rather than the 'wrong' behaviour. Besides other good effects, this makes training fun all round, for animals and their humans
    [/quote]


    This quote from Champ is a more detailed and precise explanation of how clicker training helped our girl Abby and her Mom (me).

  9. #19
    You admit that the owner/trainer didn't have much of a clue & yet you blame a method of training!
    I admit the current owner had no idea how to deal with a clicker trained horse, yes, because clicker training had caused the horse to learn to behave only when a person had a clicker in hand and a treat pouch on. Unfortunatly the horse became hard wired to respond to the clicker training only. Most horses you can verbally tell them to get back, verbally ask them to step up, verbally request they walk on, no treats needed. This horse needed the treat pouch, without it she wouldn't reaspond to any of those requests.

    Luckily horses are ingrain to listen to body language they understand so there was a fall back, as long as you knew what to do. But personally, my way of thinking is, any trained animal, should be trained, no matter who owns it, what good would it be for an SPCA to clicker train their dogs, then adopt to someone who has never used this method of training and isn't instructed extensivly in how to use it. My dogs would be considered untrained to someone else simply because half their commands are in german so they would not respond to english commands. In which case yes I blame the method, we train our dogs a certain way, its how they expect to be spoken to and rewarded, without a common ground (my dogs are also trained to hand signals) they find it confusing to be placed in a new training situation and like any animal would they rebel.

    I personally am against it for my rescues is because one some of these dogs have weight issues so the treat method is not a good one, and because they are not always going to have the clicker on hand, and in an emergency that can be a problem. And on top of all that, one of the boys on my website who was abopted out through another rescue had a professional trainer come in and try to clicker train him. He became so confused he snapped at the train, grabbing her arm with the clicker and holding it (he never bit, only held on to you when he got scared or confused, his way of saying 'stop') At that point we knew the clicker training was not going to do with any of our rescues, there was too much chance of confusion and miscommunication.

    If your clicker training your own dog, one you know you will have forever, go for it, but for us, it is not the thing to do. Not for our rescues and not for our easy keeper dog and definatly not for our rottie. On top of which, no one in our family knows how to use it and heaven for bid our wills come into play and the dogs end up in other families who wouldn't know how to control them. Like I've always said, every animal has to be trailor trained to match the dogs personality, no two dogs are alike, and as such no two methods will work the same on two dogs.

    I dislike halties too, but I use one on my rottie... but thats another argument, lol.
    The reason dogs are great is they wag their tails, not their tongues.

  10. #20
    I prefer the treat method only because the majority of my rescues are underfed and starving to death. So the treat method really helps because they are so excited to be getting what was probably their first treat and they were so anxious to please and be loved that the combination of the treat and attention had them eager to listen and do as were told. So it's always worked really good for me.

    I don't care for the haltie either. We bought one for our Mal but her head is such an odd shape it always seemed like it was digging into her ears or her eyes. We tried different sizes and different techniques but it just never seemed to fit right. My vet had suggested the haltie but when I brought my concerns up with him he realized it was unlikely we'd find a haltie to fit her head comfortably so we quit using it.

    I've moved to a halter now though and I really like it. She's a much different dog with it on. The vet's concern was that she'd have more pull strength with a halter but she actually pulls less with it. I don't use it for training anymore but I still use it when we go for a walk; only because she's an escape artist and even though she hasn't gotten loose in a long time and listens to me very well, there are a lot of squirrals, rabbits and smaller "dinner looking" dogs around the neighborhood. So I'd rather be safe than sorry.

 

 

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