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DogMom
01-26-2007, 07:21 AM
This is a website dealing specificially with feeding raw it has a bunch of mailing groups too and a TON of information about raw diets.

http://www.raw-connections.com/

countrychic10
01-26-2007, 09:01 AM
Well thank you!!!!!! :) I'm throughly shocked I didn't have this link!!! lol I have a whole list of raw feeding links and am a member of 4 other disscussion boards and I have never seen this one before. :) How nifty to add a new one to my list. :D

Thanks bunches for being so thoughtful. I really appreciate it.

Now I'm off to go dig through it. :wink: Hope you have a great day!!!!

countrychic10
01-26-2007, 09:15 AM
Interesting site. The method of feeding they discuss seems to be a midline between the methods suggested by Dr. Billinghurst and Dr. Lonsdale.

Dr. Billinghurst is known for his books on the BARF diet (biologically appropriate raw foods) and he reccomends a blended veggie "slop" very similar to what is discussed on this site. But the Billinghurst diet is looseing a bit of it's followers (at least in the RAW feeding Dane community) due to the believe that his diet contains too much bone matter.

Dr. Lonsdale advocates a strictly carnivorous diet and the diet is meat, bones and organs, no blended veggies and such..this is the diet typically referred to as RAW.

The diet plan on this site seems to take the blended veggies from Billinghurst, but doesn't push as much bone material as the BARF diet.

I personally feed according to Dr. Tom Lonsdales RAW diet. But I have modified it a bit to suit my needs. For instance on days I feed a fish and organ meal, I blend up a sweet potato and mix it in. For my dogs it helps keep the stools firm when I feed such a rich meal.....lol and not to mention my dogs just like sweet potatos. :) They also get carrots everynow and then too....once again....mainly because they like them.

Thanks again for posting that link..there's some pretty interesting info there. Not to mention even though I don't follow her plans, I enjoyed Kymythy Schultz books and they are full of some great information.

DogMom
01-26-2007, 12:25 PM
the only thing i found on there that i didn't agree with (but I haven't looked through it well yet) was her saying dogs and cats are carnivores. if i remeber correctly, cats are carnivores but dogs are considered omnivores, because wild they will eat plants and animals. she says never add veges to food becuse dogs wouldnt eat plants in the wild (and yet, all i can think about is watching my dog outside eating grass). lol

countrychic10
01-26-2007, 05:36 PM
No, dogs are carnivores. If you look up canine in your encyclopedia it will define them as carnivores. :) Hence the reason I feed a diet that is meat, bones and organs. In the wild, dogs and other canines do not really have a major part of their diet that is plant matter of any sort. My dogs will eat grass to throw up and because they like tearing up my yard :roll: but it is not part of their diet and they do not get any nutrition from eating it. A bear is an omnivore and if you compare the dentation of a bear and a dog there are obvious differences. The back molars on bears are more flattened to enable them to crush plant matter. A dogs molars are not and are designed to crush bone and tear meat. The biggest reason that people who do feed vegetation in their dogs RAW (or BARF) diet have it blended is because, in order for the dog to actually derive any nutrients from the plant matter it needs to be crushed or blended to break down the cellulose before it enters the body. The dog's digestive tract is not as long as a herbivores so it does not have the time to fully break down the plant matter in it's digestive tract before it leaves the body. Since dogs do not have the flatten, grinding molars of an omnivore or herbivore they are unable to break down the cellulose on their own and if fed the veggies and such whole, the majority of nutrients in them just pass through the body unused. This is also why typically people who feed RAW or a diet with more meat and such they generally see less stools. When kibble fed my Danes had huge poop...a lot was due to the grains and fillers that the body was unable to break down and use. Now Brutus, who weights in around 160+lbs has stools about the same size as my aunt's border collie mix. It is because he is useing and digesting more of what he eats and so is produceing less waste. It is also why when people switch from a low end kibble to one of the higher ones like Canidea, Chick Soup, Innova ect ect..they typically see smaller firmer stools because these products contain less fillers and grains and more meats and meat products.

Dogs are very adaptive though. In my opinion, one of the most adaptable creatures on earth. They can and do survive by getting their protein from kibbles and such that do contain high amounts of vegetable and grain matter. But all in all, when you break it down to basics canines are carnivores.

DogMom
01-26-2007, 05:58 PM
i guess that'll be one of those things constantly up in the air. i am studying animal medicine and care right now to be a vet tech and the last chapter dealt with proper feeding and care and it specifically said that it's long been misunderstood but dogs are omnivores because they can live on meat, veges or both. Actually, dogs do have "molars" (flat teeth) which are used to grind food so their teeth are made to tear as well as chew. personally i'd never feed strict veges but id also never consider strict meat either--only because, if wild, the dog wouldn't be given processed previously frozen chicken carcuss'. lol but i do know you'd never give chunks of veges at a dog becuse of their inability to properly digest vegetables. so if anyone reading considering offering a raw diet including veges, make sure they are chopped very small or pureed first. but i agree with you that strict meat or meat and vege is a LOT better than store bought kibble.

countrychic10
01-26-2007, 07:02 PM
LOL When it comes to pets and nutrition there will always be things up in the air. lol That's just life and human nature. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. But I stand behind my statement that dogs are carnivores. My step brother is attendening Texas A&M for vet medicine and due to the almost complete lack of nutrition training the vets recieve (other than the general all species course) he is taking extra courses specializing in nutrition and diet. Needless to say we have great conversations and his knowledge he has gained has been very helpful to me in my studies of canine nutrition. Here is a link to a rebutal to some claims made by a place called Second Chance Ranch.

The first 5 pages of rebuttals are by Chrissa Kuehn, who graduated from Colorado State University in 2004 with a Bachelor of Science Degree in Zoology and Biology, with a concentration in Anatomy and Physiology.

http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal.html
http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal2.html
http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal3.html
http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal4.html
http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal5.html

I believe page 2 of the rebutall deals with the issue of canines and them being carnivorous or omnivorious. If you have time these are a great read and full of information.

On the issue of teeth...compare the dogs molars to that of a true, defined omnivore such as the bear and you will see a difference. The bear's teeth are flatter in comparison to a canine's and thus more suited for breaking down the cellulose in plant matter. See..with humans (omnivores) digestion bascially begins in the mouth. We crush and grind our food to a pulp/mush and then swallow it. Dogs on the other hand crush it up a bit and swallow. They do not grind their food into a paste and their process of digestion begins in the stomach. My dogs eat bones, meat and organs...that is their primary diet. They never chew their food to the same consistency as we do..basically they chomp it down to a managelble size for swallowing and that is it.

On the issue of frozen, processed meat...well if anything freezing it kills off any parasites that may be present. Which wild canines do not have the luxury of parasite free, human grade meats. :) It doesn't alter the meat or it's nutrition value. Either way, the vast majority of what I feed is wild venison & boar. And nothing I feed is "processed"..especially since I have been very fortunate the past few months to have access to chemical free, farm raised meats. I have to cut it all up myself (not much fun BTW, lol) but I know it is fresh, I know exactly what is in it and what it was fed before butcher and of course it's just good and raw. :)

I have heard statements that feeding just meat does not give your dog a balanced diet or provide all the nessesary nutrients. Which is 100% correct!! For a RAW diet to properly be fed it must include meat, bones and organs and every single nutrient that is needed by the dog can be found in meat, bones and organs alone. For a double checker on that statement, if you have one handy, The Merck Vet Manual has a table that list the nutrients, vitamins and trace minerals needed by the canine in order to have a healthy diet. Here is a website link, courtesy of a friend of mine:

http://www.eastwooddanes.com/VitaminsAtoZ.html

The information listed was taken from Kymythy R Shultze book called "Natural Nutrition For Dogs And Cats" and it list the various raw foods and what each contains. Any item listed in the Merck Vet manual as a nessesary diet item for canines can be found in raw meat, bones and organs.

All in all, like I said previously..canines are very adaptable. They can and do live well & healthy on kibbles and other things that include vegetation (this is also stated in the merck vet manual under the nutrition pages). This ability to adapt is what has made the species thrive, but I do not believe it changes them from a carnivore. Either way...even if the topic doesn't interest you very much at least read the 2nd page of the rebutal that I posted. Very informative and you don't have to read all of it..jut the first couple of paragraphs.

BTW- Congrats on going to school for vet tech!! Very nifty. I have taken all my pre-rec classes for college and have a few of my college credits..though I can't decide what I want to major in...leaning more towards zoology and biology since I found the classes to be soo interesting. (hence the reason I also have the rebuttal links as well..lol got them from one of my professors so I can't take credit for finding them). Can't wait to start back up again though...hopefully next year when my oldest munchkin starts pre-K I'll be going back. :) I hope you really enjoy your courses. You have to let us know when you graduate so we can send the much deserved congratulations!! :)

DogMom
01-26-2007, 09:59 PM
I am curious about the ingredients in your satin ball recipe though, do you know the "purpose" of each ingredient? I mean, what "good" is molassis or oatmeal and the oil in the diet?? I'm just curious thats all.

Arazante
01-27-2007, 12:29 AM
I actually did look up about Canids and this is some information I got from good ol' Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_feeding): "Domesticated dogs, which are a classified as a subspecies of wolves, and cats, which are obligate carnivores, would have a diet largely consisting of fresh prey in the wild. Canids are known to eat fruit and vegetable as part of their natural diet."

Some sites will simply say they are carnivorous while others will say it is cats that are strictly carnivores and that their mouth structure is better designed for meat than a canine's because of the canine's molars. Honestly, I'm finding more studies pointing to them being "mainly carnivorous but are known to be omnivorous."

I have found this part possibly most helpful when searching up dogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog#Diet): "At present, there is some debate as to whether domestic dogs should be classified as omnivores or carnivores, by diet. The classification in the Order Carnivora does not necessarily mean that a dog's diet must be restricted to meat; unlike an obligate carnivore, such as the cat family with its shorter small intestine, a dog is dependent on neither meat-specific protein nor a very high level of protein in order to fulfill its basic dietary requirements. Dogs are able to healthily digest a variety of foods including vegetables and grains, and in fact can consume a large proportion of these in their diet. Wild canines not only eat available plants to obtain essential amino acids, but also obtain nutrients from vegetable matter from the stomach and intestinal contents of their herbivorous prey, which they usually consume. Domestic dogs can survive healthily on a reasonable and carefully designed vegetarian diet, particularly if eggs and milk products are included. Some sources suggest that a dog fed on a strict vegetarian diet may develop dilated cardiomyopathy since it lacks L-carnitine, [12] however, maintaining a balanced diet is also a factor since L-carnitine is found naturally in many nuts, seeds, beans, vegetables, fruits and whole grains. In the wild, dogs can survive on a vegetarian diet when animal prey is not available. However it has been noted, both by observation of extremely stressful conditions such as the Iditarod race and by scientific studies of similar conditions, that high-protein (approximately 40%) diets including meat help prevent damage to muscle tissue. (This research is also true for some other mammals.) This level of protein corresponds to the percentage of protein found in the wild dog's diet when prey is abundant; higher levels of protein seem to confer no added benefit.

Dogs frequently avidly eat grass, which is a harmless activity. Explanations abound, but rationales such as that it neutralizes acid, or that eating grass might make the dog vomit, so dogs eat grass to remove unwanted substances from their stomachs, are at best educated guesses. Dogs do vomit more readily than humans, as part of their typical feeding behavior of gulping down food then regurgitating indigestible bones, fur, etc. This behavior is typical of pack feeding in the wild, where the most important thing is to get as much of the kill as possible before others consume it all. Individual domestic dogs, however, may be very "picky" eaters, in the absence of this evolutionary pressure."

And this is where you are right on the dot, Crystal, when you say "I have heard statements that feeding just meat does not give your dog a balanced diet or provide all the nessesary nutrients."

I know grass helps the immune system when they are sick, but in my personal experience my dog would never eat vegetables like broccoli, and while he had the habit of picking up anything that dropped to the floor, a food like carrots, calliflower, and brocolli didn't stay in his stomach. He always threw it up.

The links were very informative. Thank you for sharing them.

DogMom
01-27-2007, 12:48 AM
What i've always heard for adding veges is if the meat is strictly meat--meaning no bone. the veges add the fiber to basically regulate the meat intake (to lesson diarhea or painfuly solid stools). but sure they'll have a positive effect (such as vitamins and nutrients) as well. but like i said what i've always heard is that the veges help to regulate with the fiber to meat intake (5 lbs of straight raw hamburger would be pretty rough on digestion so you add the veges--or fiber--to even it out).

countrychic10
01-27-2007, 01:13 AM
On the issue of Satin Balls...the molassis adds calories and dogs like the taste so they eat it. The main objective of Satin Balls is to add calories to help with weight gain, though some people believe differently I don't think they are a "complete" diet...just a high calorie, great tasteing food to encourage sick dogs to eat and put weight on thin dogs.

Quote from rebuttal written by Chrissa Kuehn:

"Omnivore means that they do feast on vegetation. Most wild dogs (including wolves), primarily eat meat. Some wild dogs will eat small amounts of vegetable matter or fruit, but it does not form the bulk of their diet. Additionally, the wild dogs that do eat the occasional vegetable matter are not considered ancestors of our canine companions. Our canine companions descend from the highly carnivorous gray wolf. Our dogs ARE carnivores, and there is not one shred of viable evidence to prove they are omnivores (unless you want to consider the fact that humans are forcing dogs to be omnivores by feeding them commercial diets high in grains or cooked diets with vegetables; just because they eat it does not mean it is appropriate or necessary for them.)"

The canids who typically do eat more vegetaion such as foxes are not near as closely related to dogs as the grey wolf is. I can not remember the percentages on the DNA, but I'll dig them up....wolf DNA is extremely close to domesticated canines (hence why they can breed together and produce fertile offspring) while the DNA of foxes or coyotes has a broader gap when compared to that of domestic canines.

Yep Arazante...there's a ton of conflicting info out there. :) lol Kind of agravateing really, but I love to hear other people's thoughts on the issue. Not to mention, even if in general, I don't agree with something I end up learning something new and interesting. On the issue of veggies being fed in RAW diets...this is where people get confused. The BARF diet by Dr. Ian Billinghurst advocates feeding a certain percentage of a "veggie slop" (lol don't know why they chose to call it that). The RAW diet advocated by Dr. Tom Lonsdale, is intended to be mainly raw meats, bones and organs. Any RAW feeding group I am a member of does not advocate the use of veggies and if you were to ask a question about vegetable matter and what kinds of veggies to feed the moderators remove the post and will email you a disclaimer that states "This board is to discuss RAW diets. Here the term RAW is defined as a prey model diet of meat, bones and organs" For discussions on vegetables and things of that nature please join the BARF feeding group @ www.blah blah..ect ect"

So since I don't feed vegetables as a part of the total diet I couldn't answer on why people do it. If you were interested and wanted for info though just do a google search on BARF diets and Dr. Ian Billinghurst. I know the only times my dogs eat grass is when they have an upset stomach...I have never seen them eat grass and not throw it up shortly after. They also tear up my grass...i.e- pull it up by the roots..and then throw the dirt clods around..but that has nothing to do with diet...I just have goofy dogs! :) i honestly don't know if I could get my dogs to eat broccoli....lol Never tried really. I offer a blended sweet potato every now and then and they like to chew on cold carrots but other than that there aren't any veggies in their diet.

Now I could be wrong on this so don't quote me...but I do believe that dogs are able to and do get nutrients from blended vegetables, so I would assume people who do feed a diet with this along with raw meat, bones and organs, feed the blended vegetables to get the various nutrients they provide and I don't see anything wrong with this. If it works for them, then by all means do it. :) I'm sure the blended veggie slop wouldn't hurt my dogs either but my personal preferance is to the RAW diet.

I have seen BARF fed dogs, I have seen kibble fed dogs and of course I have seen RAW fed dogs...all have been healthy, all live long lives so in my opinion it just goes to show how adaptable the canine is. It will and can thrive in almost any situation. Of course I prefer RAW..but my mian reason for switching was because Blue could not tolerate kibble. Didn't matter what kind it was he always had problems before I switched him over. Brutus on the other hand...I'm pretty sure if I was to switch him to kibble tomorrow he would do just fine on it...accept the temper fit about not getting his favorite goodies anymore. lol

I can however say this...I have noticed such an ugly trend on the RAW feeding groups I'm a member of and honestly it bugs me. Not to mention I'm sure anyone who has read a link on raw feeding has seen it too. They preach that kibble will kill your dogs, that it is not a food that can be properly digested, ect..ect.. and my whole issue is..How can they back up that claim when I have personally seen dogs live to a ripe old age and was kibble fed it's entire life??? LOL I posted about that and made mention of the fact that all the RAW feeders are constantly talking about how they are sick of kibble feeders attacking their methods and ideas..but then they turn around and do the exact same thing!....Needless to say I got 2 warnings from the mod team :(

All the info on RAW feeding is very conflicting, everyone who feeds RAW has their own way of doing things and every person has a different way of perceiving information. We could all read the same article and all of us get something different out of it. That's why my advice will be and always has been...do your research..find what YOU are comfortable with and then don't worry about it. :)

And to everyone on this thread..I have enjoyed the chatting and really appreciate that this didn't result in personal attacks....lol :wink: And to dogmom...thanks for the original link that started this thread..still haven't had a chance to read through all of it yet but there is some interesting info in what I have read so far. Hope ya'll have a great night!

Arazante
01-27-2007, 01:31 AM
I only question one real thing with RAW (while I respect everything else) and that is the comparision of dogs to wolves. People like Ceaser Millan compare a dog's habits to a wolf's and therefore base his training around a wolf's habits to match how to train a dog's habits. But as I read about both species and their habits in eating and behaviour.. I feel it's like comparing human beings to monkeys or saying that though certain types of apes are our ancestors, that means we are the same, when studies of evolution will disprove that. This is one that I really like and read a while ago that touches on this: http://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2006/10/controversial-origins-of-domestic-dog.html

That is my only concern. And the only thing I really disagree with people saying the dog is strictly carnivorous. The oldest breeds have been recorded to have come from Asia, that which the gray wolf did not inhabit. The domesticated dog -may- have evolved from the gray wolf, but it is NOT the gray wolf anymore and hasn't been for thousands of years, and therefore should not be treated as one, be it discipline training or even food behavior. They should not be compared as the same when they are not the same.

Seriously though, I am nitpicking on the technicality of the defintion. But I took an evolution class in college and learned not to treat creatures/people the same as their ancestors. Evolution changes a world of things.

Respectively, I will never dismiss the RAW dieters belief of fresh meat-feeding. Because the canine (domesticated and wild) mouth structure is designed for it. Heck, I want to feed my future dogs RAW, but I will not look at my dog and think "wolf". Sorry to disagree, and sorry I'm just off the subject now.

countrychic10
01-27-2007, 02:10 AM
Good points. :) My biggest reason for the wolf / dog comparison is that many people say that dogs can't live on a RAW diet and it's harmful and lacking and that grains and veggies are nessesary. But you strip away what's on the outside and in general they have the same body make up and mouths. So yep, it is possible for a domesticated dog to thrive on a diet that consist of meat, bones and organs, just like their wild counterparts do.

But your points on evolution make an interesting point. Canines are classified as carnivores, but I personally like to point out that they are very adaptable and thrive on a diet that isn't strictly carnivourous.

And since we are comparing wolves and dogs, I figured it fair to show both sides of the coin :D...here is the reason I got my 2nd warning from the mod team on the RAW group. I was reading in the nutrition section of the Merck Vet manual...under the zoo animal section was listed the various feeding regiments for the animals. For wolves, it listed "dry canine pellets" (which I assume to be dog food, though correct me if I'm wrong) supplemented with meat.....I questioned this on the RAW group and asked why if actual wolves can live well on kibble then why is it so bad for domesticated dogs??

Apparently from the message I got from the mod team I need to pick a side of the fence and stay there..I can't say both are good. :) Guess I'll always be a bit odd but I'm going to stick to my thoughts that there are several methods in which you can feed your dog and they live a healthy, long life. :)

Thanks for the link Arazante....haven't had a chance to read through all of it but will do tomorrow. And BTW- forwarded your website on the my vet's wife and she asked me to pass along her compliments. She loves your work. :wink:

Arazante
01-27-2007, 02:26 AM
Sorry if it seemed like I was barrating you, I completely understand your reasonings behind the RAW method, and they have been proven if even not by scientists, but by the scientific method. I was more rambling to myself about the subject as a whole, which I tend to do often. The information you presented made me think, is all. Mainly because I have read that the oldest dogs domesticated were dogs like the Chow-Chow: dogs of Asia. The gray wolf inhabited North America.

Sorry to hear they gave you a warning for posing a question. I rather like these discussions with you on here because I can't find many people who would discuss such things, plus being that "debates" (even if mild like our's) on other forums of any kind always lead to insults and aggression on the person, personally, simply for a conflicting view. Though, I don't see much conflict here as I almost always agree with what you say, and right now, do.

Thank you for the promotion. I really do appreciate it. :)

All the reading has gotten me a bit dizzy. Thank you for the awesome discussion. I always look forward to reading what you have to say.

DogMom
01-27-2007, 09:11 AM
i found another link yesterday and i'll have to look for it again but it was rather interesting too. It was written by a vet of 25+ years who had just lost his 8 year old dog to cancer of some sort. anyway, he was saying how the dog showed "this" symptom and he treated it with 'the vet way' (as he called it) and after the dog died he did some extensive research and actually learned that the "vet way" and the "kibble way" contributed to the cancer (the medication lowered the immune system response which made the dog more suseptable to the cancer cells). I don't remember word for word the issue but it was rather interesting the things he had to say. it was all, of course, a way to get you to buy his book of self and home remedies for medical treatment and feeding but he made some interesting points (and comparisons) in his sales pitch. i dont neccessarily need proof that whats going in my dog has benefits or what the purpose is but it is nice to have things broke down and explained--whether it be good or bad. I guess i'm more comfortable saying, "I feed molassis because it helps gain weight" rather than, "I'm not sure why the molassis is in the recipe or what it does". You know?

I'm right there with you Country on a lot of food issues--be it (quality) kibble, RAW, BARF or whatever you choose if it works for your pet then keep it up! it's not about whats cheaper or easier or whatever its about what our own individual dogs thrive on and do best with becuse thats whats important. i really like the satin balls for weight gain, I've had great success with it since you posted the recipe. and i like the BARF as a daily feeding. and whichever i chose it is mixed with a quality kibble. i guess thatd make me a BARABBLE feeder (BArf, RAw, kiBBLE)

oh and ps i used to have a coyote husky mix and he was such a sweetheart! i loved his little yip yip yip--so funny coming from a 40lb dog.

countrychic10
01-27-2007, 10:11 AM
Arazante,

Don't apologize!! :) lol I never took anything you said in a bad way. I do enjoy being able to discuss things of this nature and it not result in an all out battle. :) The way I see it..I have all the proof I need as far as the effectiveness of raw. I see it in my own dogs and I see it in several of my friend's/breeder's dogs who have generations of raw fed dogs. That there is the proof I need, not what someone feels to write on a paper. I do like that I have information to substaniate my thoughts and ideas on the diet, and a big bonus is I have finally found a vet who got very interested in the diet after we saw such a dramatic turn around in Blue, that the 2 of us frequently have discussions on it as well. And honestly I don't think there is a way scientist can "prove" which is better for dogs. Pedigree is selling a food and making the outrageous claim that feeding it has been proven to add 2 years to your dogs life. lol With all the varibles that play a role in the longevity of a dog there is no way possible that claim can be backed up. There also isn't a way to prove if your dog lives longer on raw.

And as far as my warning....lol it's no big deal. I have got them on more than one occasion. Some of the raw feeders on that group get almost fanatical about the whole thing and it's pretty creepy to be honest with you. I can honestly see why several people turn away from the idea of RAW as well. If you saw how some of the long time feeders acted towards people who are new or interested in switching it would make you sick. They basically beat them with RAW info and inform them of how they have been killing their pets with kibble. See, overall I feed animals parts..not whole animals (not logical to put a whole cow in my kitchen floor!). But there is what I have nicknamed as the "prey model cult" on the raw boards. And if your not feeding whole prey then your doing it wrong and they will literally attack you to prove that you are not doing it right. An example..a woman who breeds mini poodles buys a whole calf or pig and puts it in the back yard so her dogs can eat on it "in a pack as nature intended" It takes them several days...even over a week or so to finish this off. Personally.....that's just gross and I don't want decaying carcasses in my backyard. lol After I was told I was wrong for not feeding in that particular manner I couldn't resist and asked this woman "so...what's next...are you going to send your mini poodles out to hunt in a pack as well...and quit giving them haircuts and other things typically done with domesticated dogs?? After all that is the way nature intended. :)" ..Once again..another warning. So overall, I like the discussions here because they are not one sided. I think they way you learn best is by seeing both sides of the coin. :) And by the way...loved the link....finally got around to reading through it and added it to my favorites. :) Thanks for that. :)

Dogmom:

I think I saw that thing your talking about with the vet...it was a big pitch to sell a book. I think I posted a link here with a video similar..if I didn't I'll post it. Over all my opinion on it is a sales pitch, but in the begining they do place out some facts on kibble that in my mind is a great guide for pet owners to help them choose a quality food for their pets instead of things like Ol' Roy and other garbage kibbles. I know over all, most people think I'm "off my rocker" when it comes to my pets. I follow a limited vaccine schedule, I do not do booster shots yearly, instead I opt for titre test to check immunities before I vaccinate unnesarily. Of course I feed a "weird diet" lol, and I don't give heart worm preventative year round. Sadly for me, all the choices I now make with my pets have been from trial and error with pets in the past and I will not loose another pet just because I blindly trusted a vet without researching a bit first. I guess that puts me on the fence as far as vet medicine....I don't go strictly holistic vet medicine...I lean more towards modern medicine on the majority of things, but I do keep things to a minimum as most holistic practitioners prefer and test and be sure they have to have whatever medications before I allow them to have them.

LOL And by the way...LOVE your new feeding method!!!!!!!!!! I'm going to steal your word if you don't mind and use it on the RAW group (lol getting ready for my next warning apparently :D) I can't tell you how hard I laughed when I read "BARABBLE"!!!! Very clever! :wink:

ritabooker
01-27-2007, 06:20 PM
You guys got me thinkin' and readin' again:

Arazante, according to this article, you are correct that modern domestic dogs are not related to the North American Wolfe(modern wolfe), but to the Old World Wolfe. This article is fascinating to me because I am always wondering about the how and why of our canine buddies and they explain in detail how this evolution took place(or, how they believe it took place).

Here is a link to an article on the ancestry of dogs:
http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/11_02/dog.shtml

From the article:
Based on examinations of dogs from places as distant as Peru and Alaska, the researchers hypothesize that "ancient and modern dogs worldwide share a common origin from Old World gray wolves."

Thanks, you guys, for a forum where we can think, read and discuss without fear. This post may be off-topic, but this thread lead me to find the article.

DogMom
01-27-2007, 07:40 PM
:D

it's almost weird how "they" think becuse dogs are dogs now and not wolves, they can't eat meat nemore. You know? That's like saying since we're human and not monkeys (nemore) that we cant eat bananas. but as far as i see it, who cares!

and country--become a BARABBLE feeder with me, by all means!

countrychic10
01-27-2007, 08:01 PM
I see the connection in dogs and wolves and do believe there are many similarities. More so than what are seen in humans and chimps. In regards to diet, I believe they are able to eat and thrive on the same things as wolves....I have proof of it laying on my sofa right now (one of which happens to have dirty paws I might add!!! :roll: ) Regardless of the wolf species in question, you strip away the outside of a dog and wolf and the anatomy is the same. So the only logical thought would be that both are able to eat and digest the same things. But people tend to take the whole matter to the extreme. Which is sad really because there are some pets (like my Blue) who could really benefit from a raw diet and their owners are turned away from the idea due to the attitudes of the people who feed it (I'm referring to some fellow members from my raw boards) and have a major superiority complex. You wouldn't believe the h## I'm catching right now because I have opted to feed my new foster kibble.

Dogmom,

lol :D Though I'm not planning on feeding my boys kibble or veggies anytime in the future, I do enjoy the word and pasted it on to a friend of mine who is a "BARF" feeder. She laughed so hard and said that technically she could be a "BARABBLE" feeder because she feeds "BARF" which includes the veggie slops and she uses Innova dog kibble as training treats and such. lol