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Sammy
10-24-2006, 10:52 AM
I am new to this forum and was browsing through some of the post and I have a few questions. What is a RAW diet? How many memembers here feed a RAW diet? From what I have gathered, some people actually feed a diet of RAW meat, not to mention bones as well. How can this be safe?
I just can't understand how this food could be better for a dog then what I feed which is Science Diet, reccomended by my vet.

countrychic10
10-24-2006, 11:09 AM
Hi, since I believe I am the only strict RAW feeder on this forum I will try to help you out. I do not feed commercial foods, I feed a diet of raw meat, organs and bones...with occasional vegetable matter mixed in there. Yes, it is safe, I have never had any problems with this diet and am totally thrilled with the results I have gotten from it. If you are interested you can check out the site www.rawlearning.com and you can also read Dr. Tom Londsdale book "Raw Meaty Bones" @ www.rawmeatybones.com You can down load and read it for free.

Personally, I do believe this diet is better for my pets than commercial grain based foods. But to each his own, I'm not really up for argueing which is or isn't better. We all love our pets and do the very best we can :) Though I would like to give you a little peice of advice. Science Diet is not one of the better kibbles, you can find much better quality at the same or lower prices. In case your wondering why your vet reccomends it...the majority of vets do not take extensive nutrition courses..they are taught how to analyze and read food labels, and are given general education..meaning they learn all animal nutrition in one course...it is very rarely species specific. Not to mention that the Hill's Company (makers of Science Diet) sponsor a nutrition course. :) My step-brother is attending Texas A&M for vet medicine, and he informed me of the Hill's Co. rep who came into their class and gave a run down of each of their formula's and also many Vet's get kick backs from selling the stuff. :) If your taught in school that its best, and you get a financial kickback from it why not recommend it?? :) :) :)

Either way, a site you may also find helpful is www.oldmissiondanes.com

Go to their diet section, they have a kibble grading scale on there that helps you grade your kibble based on the ingredients. When I did feed kibble I would prefer to feed something that scored an "A" or higher. They have Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul listed pretty high on the list, I used it previously and liked it.....not to mention it isn't expensive.

Sammy
10-24-2006, 11:22 AM
Thanks for the links on the kibble. I didn't know that about Science Diet and will look into another alternative not sold by my vet. :)

As far as the RAW topic goes, I have been reading your post about RAW in some other threads and quiet frankly, find it to be your opinion and not factual. I don't think dogs are carnivores as you have stated in other threads. Not to mention you can probably kill your dogs by what you are doing, I would definately research more and rethink this risky choice.

countrychic10
10-24-2006, 11:35 AM
Well....I guess all in all this forum is full of opinions. Here are some facts for you, from someone who HAS ACTUALLY researched this diet and canines in general. Do I claim to be an expert?!?! No, not at all. But am I confindent in my own knowledge and in the research I have done? Absolutely!!!

No they aren't opinions and yes I can substantiate them.

Dogs are carnivores not omnivores. Thats fact, not opinion.

They have the dentation of a carnivore which is different from omnivores. That is fact, not opinion.

They have the jaw movement of a carnivore which is different from an omnivore. That is fact, not opinion.

They have a short intestinal tract which is much shorter than an omnivore. That is fact, not opinion.

Their intestinal tract is too short to allow for digestion of plant material. Full digestion is nessesary to get the full benefit from the plant matter. That is fact, not opinion.

They have very acidic stomach juices which is different than an omnivore. They can break down and handle numerous sorts of bacteria that humans can not. Again, fact not opinion.

Kibble is over 50% grain. That is fact, not opinion.

Carnivores do not eat grain, they eat meat, bones and organs. That is fact, not opinion.

Cooked food has much less nutrition than raw food no matter what it is. Much nutrition is lost in the cooking process. That is fact, not opinion.

Not only do I have these facts, I have experience feeding nothing but raw meat, bones, and organs to dogs ages from 13 weeks to 12 years, I also have the proof in my Grandmother's dogs, who by the way has fed this diet for over a decade!!!

The only people I hear critisizing what I say are the people who have never fed raw. They have all these preconceived myths in their minds and nothing to base them on. To those who don't feed it but have been open minded and pleasant I GREATLY APPRECIATE it.

I fed kibble for years. I know all about it. I know how kibble is made and what is in it and what the ingredients do.

Why don't you ask for the dogfood companies to substantiate that their food is half as good as mine? Afterall, they are the new kids on the block. They have only been around for about 50 years or less. Raw feeding has been around for millions of years.

What do you think people fed their dogs in the 1950s? the 1900s? the 1850s? Even before then? I just don't understand how people don't ask for some kind of proof that what they are feeding their dogs has the proper nutrition or is healthy for their dogs or is appropriate food. Ever cut one of those kibbles in half? See anything in there that looks like meat?

As I have said numerous times, to each his own. I am not about to bash anyone for their feeding choices. We do the best we can. I am also not saying that you will kil your dog by feeding kibble..thousands of dogs live full, long lives on kibble with no issues. What I am saying is you have put me on the defensive, I do not like the insinuation that i am doing harm to my pets by being un-educated....from the looks of things I have educated myself on this topic much more than you have. I would love to keep things pleasant between us and on this one we can agree to disagree. :D Best of luck with your Weimaraner, they bring a ton of joy into a house. :D

Sammy
10-24-2006, 11:43 AM
I do want to be pleasant with you. Just a friendly debate. :) My concern is the chance that people reading your post may actually consider switching their pets to this diet because of your raves on it. Here are some websites I have found. How can you respond to the arguments against RAW in these?? I think both make a few very good points, don't you?? Why take risk when there is quality food available that would even take less work for you to feed??

http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html

http://www.vetinfo.com/drawmeat.html#Raw%20Meat%20Diet%20-%20%20caution

countrychic10
10-24-2006, 11:58 AM
Hmmmm...some how I get the feeling that you are taunting me. :) No worries though, I am always up for a bit of freindly debating. :D I rather enjoy it from time to time. :D

When I read things, such as the short debate in the second link, I realize that the disconnect between what we raw feeders think and what traditional vets think is all in the assumptions. The woman who asked the vet questions in the second link pointed out some flaws in the vets assumptions.

Some big ones (flawed assumptions) I hear again and again would be:

- Wild canids live shorter lives than their domestic, kibble fed counterparts. Therefore, kibble is better for canids than raw animals.

An alternate interpretation would be that given vet care, which has improved dramatically over the past couple of decades, our domesticated animals are healed when injured or sick. No one is there to fix a broken leg, mend a deep cut, treat a parasitic infection, or any other ailment in wild populations. In addition, our domesticated animals are given a regular supply of food, whereas wild populations are subject to limited availablity at times. Could this be a valid assumption for why wild canids on appropriate diets still don't live as long as kibble fed dogs?

- Humans can't eat raw meat, and since dogs have evolved with us and eatten cooked meats with us in early human history, then like us, dogs cannot safely eat raw meat.

Did dogs really evolve with us? I would like to see some evidence of the changes in canid biology over the period of human history where they lived in cooperation with us. In addition, dogs and humans have different digestive tracts. We have teeth for meat and plants, dogs have teeth for meat. We have long and slow digestive tracts so we can digest cellulose plant matter, dogs have short digestive tracts best suited to digesting meat and bones. Humans and dogs, while socially have much in common, biologically are VERY different, making this assumption flawed.

- Bacteria, which is significantly more prevalent in raw vs. cooked meat, is going to infect your dog and quite possibly kill him/her.

First off, I would agree that in a raw chicken breast there is more bacteria than in a cooked chicken breast. However, there have been studies that show the amount of bacteria in kibble to be rather high. In addition, given the short digestive tract of a dog, they are better able to deal with that bacteria. The meat goes in, sits in stomach acid that is able to disintegrate bone, and moves out though the bowels in much less time than it would in humans (humans being the example here since we are so often compared to dogs in this discussion). Not only will much of the bacteria be killed off in the very strong stomach acid, stronger than our stomach acid, but any that is left is moved through the system fast enough that it is not given the opportunity to flourish and cause infection. We humans are so freaked out about bacteria, but we all have some level of "bad" bacteria in our systems all the time. Its only an infection when it is given the chance to multiply.

This bacteria issues is actually why its recommended not to feed raw and kibble together. The kibble can take upwards of 10-12 hours to move through the entire digestive track, while raw moves through in 4-6 hours. The kibble ends up backing up the raw, giving any bacteria time to grow. This is also why its recommended you fast your dog about 24 hours before making the switch, that way risks are greatly reduced. Either way, there are various opinions on that issue in the RAW community, I know several who feed a combination of both with no issues at all.

Those are a few of what I have seen and heard from people who don't think raw is a good idea, or are concerned about it. I hope I have demonstrated how its really in the assumptions, the interpretations of evidence. Do wild dogs live short lives because of diet? Or is it because they don't have someone fixing their ailments and making sure they always have food? You know, nature did things the right way. Its hard to be a wild animal, but nature has given them all the tools they need to survive, reproduce, and continue for thousands of years with minimal variation.

Now on to the Second Chance Ranch link. :) Things from this site pop up very frequently on the RAW feeding list. It comes up so often that many of us now find it humerous rather than agravating. :D My first question about it would be...how qualified is SCR to make these statements? Any degrees or concrete evidence to back them up?? lol No, not really.
Anywho...here are a few rebuttals made to Second Chance Ranch.

The first 5 pages of rebuttals are by Chrissa Kuehn, who graduated from Colorado State University in 2004 with a Bachelor of Science Degree in Zoology and Biology, with a concentration in Anatomy and Physiology. The last rebuttal was written by Dr. Ian Billinghurst of BARF fame. Enjoy your reading...there's a lot of information there for you :D :D :D HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!! :D :D :D :D

http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal.html
http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal2.html
http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal3.html
http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal4.html
http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal5.html
http://www.bestfrisbeedogs.com/mybluedog2.html Rebuttal by Dr. Billinghurst

Sammy
10-24-2006, 12:00 PM
Wow! LOL Long post, I will have to wait until I get home tonight to read all the material and give my response. I have to say though, I do enjoy your wit. :P

Arazante
10-24-2006, 01:40 PM
I never fed my dog a raw diet. I do, however, regret giving him Science Diet. He got fat, he seemed to throw up a lot, and the food seemed to give him this bad odor in his stomach, so he had bad breath. We stopped giving it to him (perhaps we waited too long though), and I won't ever go back to that brand. I don't have my dog anymore, unfortunately, but I do have a cat who I feed Eukanuba to. It's hard to do a raw diet with him because most info is directed towards dogs, and there doesn't seem to be too much research on what is the best brand of cat kibble. I can't afford to feed him a raw diet every single day. I'm just a young person who's got nothing right now, really, so I feel if you ever start a raw diet, you need some pocket change...

And to be perfectly honest, I don't like reading about raw diets. They're way too conflicting. I rather just fully rely upon what CountryChic has to say since her knowledge seems reasonable and open-ended enough to allow someone to feed any raw meat without drawing a circle for you to run in. She makes me feel comfortable.

So, I guess to your original post, I, right now, simply feed kibbles. I would like to do both raw and kibble for my kitty in the future, and same with my dogs.

ritabooker
10-24-2006, 02:08 PM
Hi Sammy, Welcome to the forum.

Here is another reference regarding RAW diet.

"Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats, The Ultimate Diet", written by Kymythy R. Schultze, C.C.N., A.H.I.

Did you know that commercial dog foods have only been in widespread use since the 1950's. What do you think your grandma fed her dog? I know my grandma did not cook for her dog, nor did my great-grandma.

If you want to feed kibble, Canidae and Natural Balance are better quality foods than Science Diet.

I do not feed raw because I am too lazy to plan that well, but if you read more, you will find out that RAW diet is no more risky that any other diet,
and safer that many commercial foods.

ritabooker
10-24-2006, 02:14 PM
"As far as the RAW topic goes, I have been reading your post about RAW in some other threads and quiet frankly, find it to be your opinion and not factual. I don't think dogs are carnivores as you have stated in other threads. Not to mention you can probably kill your dogs by what you are doing, I would definately research more and rethink this risky choice."

Sammy, here is a link which defines dogs as Carnivores:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog

Here is a quote from that link: "The dog is a mammal in the order Carnivora."

" I have a wolf sanctuary, and the truth is that wild-born wolves taken into captivity are typically malnourished. " This is from the SCR link. It occurs to me that the reason the wolves are malnourished could be that their habitat in the area these wolves come from is desiccated and will not support the kind of prey that wolves thrive on.

Sammy
10-24-2006, 03:15 PM
Well I think I personally will not risk the health of my dog on such a thing. Not to mention, it has been said that it is expensive to feed this way so there is one other reason I am not willing to go that route. The other thing, I do believe dogs need the grains and such in their diet in order to get all the nutrients nessesary.

countrychic10
10-24-2006, 03:35 PM
Sammy, Sammy, Sammy.....can you please abandon the thought that I am doing something terrible to my dogs?? My Weimaraner for one, has never been healthier or more comfortable. My vet has even been so impressed with the turn around that Blue has made that he borrowed some of my books to research this diet further. Surely if an old timer like my vet can be open minded, then you can as well???

As far as what you do or do not feed your dog, that is a personal choice. I didn't realize it eariler when I did it, but in case I offended you by my comments on Science Diet I am sorry. I was just trying to point out there are better options out there that usually cost a bit less. In my area Science Diet usually runs about $40 for the large bag...when compared to the $29-$32 for the same size bag of Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul, which is by far a much better product that is not full of mostly corn. Either way...if what your feeding works for you and your dogs, then by all means stick with it. :D

On a side note, the kibbles listed by Rita and the book she talked about are great! Bought the book recently and loved it :D

On to expenses. :D When I first started feeding this diet I did pay a bit more. Once I located all the great sources for product & made friends with a few meat markets I actually spend less money to feed this diet than I do when I am buying kibble. I had to learn a few tricks before I started really saving money. Like for instance, I never knew that many grocer's will actually order meat by the case and offer a discounted price per lb if you buy enough. I order chicken backs, leg quarters, turkey necks, duck necks, beef hearts and tounges and occasionally kidneys by the case. On average I spend no more $0.80 per lb (chicken products cost around $0.20 per lb) Plus I am also not spending the money about twice a month to take Blue to the vet for hives, rashes and compacted anal glands because I haven't had any of those issues since the switch. My husband also hunts so I have access to wild game such as boar and deer as well. Of course it does depend on your area as to how much you spend on meat. I have friends that I am so jealous of because they rarely pay over $0.40 per lb...and thats on stuff like beef products!!

As far as whether or not they get everthing they need from this diet...yes they do. :D Since you have put so much research into reading my past RAW post on this board maybe you should go back and find the link that I listed in at least 2 post about the nutrients and vitamins found in raw foods. As a matter of fact get the book Rita mentioned because the link is taken directly from that book. Have fun researching.

And by the way....in the spirit of friendly debate :) I noticed you did post a reply in this thread but had nothing to say about my comments or information I provided you with reguarding the "anti-raw" links you posted. No comment??? :P

Sammy
10-25-2006, 06:21 PM
For some reason I get the slight feeling that you are being sarcastic with me. And no, you did not offend me by your comments on Science Diet. As you know from my introduction post on this forum we recently got Lucy and just fed what we picked up from the vet.

On to the RAW discussion :) Your telling me that you actually pay less money now to feed this "fad diet" than you do to buy a premium kibble? Would I be wrong to assume that you are just feeding whatever meat is available..say maybe things not okay for people to eat anymore..past date products and such?

And I'm sorry to discredit your "miracle" with this diet, but I am having a hard time believing that just because you now feed your Weimaraner RAW that health issues have actually cleared up. What does his food have to do with "hives, rashes and compacted anal glands"??

Some of the products you feed don't seem like they are even edible. Chicken backs?? Turkey Necks??

I am not saying this to be mean but I seriously think that you can harm your dogs by doing this, I guess its lucky that they are large dogs and not small...I couldn't imagine a small breed eating this diet.

ritabooker
10-26-2006, 10:49 AM
"And I'm sorry to discredit your "miracle" with this diet, but I am having a hard time believing that just because you now feed your Weimaraner RAW that health issues have actually cleared up. What does his food have to do with "hives, rashes and compacted anal glands"??"

Sammy, I don't think you can discredit Crystal's results. She feeds RAW,
her dogs are super healthy, that is what she has stated. Food has everything to do with all sorts of health issues, including the ones Crystal mentioned. There is a certain amount of trust that goes with communicating in a forum. I don't believe Crystal is misrepresenting her results from feeding RAW diet.

"Would I be wrong to assume that you are just feeding whatever meat is available..say maybe things not okay for people to eat anymore..past date products and such?"

You are way off base here, and insulting to boot. No one who cares about their animals will feed spoiled food to their pets.

You can feed quality kibble, or RAW, and have a healthy dog, but Sammy, if you insult folks, it is not a friendly debate as you claimed earlier.

countrychic10
10-26-2006, 07:28 PM
Sammy, I would love to inform you that you have made my day and gave me quite a laugh to boot. :D

First of all RAW is not a miracle diet and does not cause miracles. Your question: "What does his food have to do with "hives, rashes and compacted anal glands"??" shows me exactly how little you do know about canine nutrition. When on kibble, Blue suffered from grain related allergies. We even tried numerous formulas such as lamb and rice to help ease his suffering but he still continued to have the hives and rashes, we even went as far as medicating the poor thing to help ease his problems and had little luck. Doesn't it make sense that if you are feeding something the dog can not tolerate, and then switch to something with no allergens in it, that symptoms of allergies and intolerance would then be resolved?? That doesn't look like a miracle to me, just common sense. Due to his allergy issues and in general not tolerating or digesting his food properly, Blue also had very running stools...sometimes they were almost water like. When a dog is passing loose stools constantly (for over 2 years!) the stools are not able to empty the anal glands..thus the compacted glands. When switched to RAW he has had nice, small, firm stools which in effect empty the glands during a bowel movement just as nature intended. Once again, no miracle..just good old fashion common sense. :D

And yes, you would be wrong to assume that I feed my dogs things such as spoiled meat. Every meat item I buy is suitable for me and my family to eat. Though I do have to say none of my family members care to eat kidneys or brains like my dogs do. :P Many times I dip into the "dogs freezer" for chicken for a Bar BQ or I steal a pork roast and cook for the family instead of feeding to the dogs. I do not buy past date products (first of all the stores in my area are not allowed to sell them!) and not to mention I have no desire to handle rancid meat.

Products like chicken backs and turkey necks are perfectly suitable for eating. Mine eat one or the other at least 5 times per week. Since you need to feed bone in proportion to meat in order to keep nice firm stools, products like this are a great source of bone and are very easily digested. A large majority of bones that I feed to my dogs are from poultry and rabbit. Would you be shocked to hear that I also feed items that you would call "inedible" such as duck necks with the heads attatched, pork necks (whole and covered in meat, not the cut ones in the grocery store), chicken frames and salmon heads?? Sounds yummy huh? :P lol

I am assuming your comment about the spoiled meat was meant as sort of a "low-blow", but don't fret I was in no way insulted. :) I just look at this as a wonderful opportunity to educate you on canines and the ins and outs of RAW feeding. Though I do not feed anything spoiled or rotted, canines have such highly acidic digestive tracts that they can in fact eat rancid meat with little problems. I had the great unfortune of seeing my Weimaraner gobble up a 3 day old road killed rabbit that had been baking in the West Texas sun...and guess what?? He never had one single problem, didn't get sick, didn't get any infections, didn't even have a little bit of a tummy upset (Though I have to say I was grossed out by the ordeal!! lol). Mother Nature knew best when she designed the canine, and our domesticated pets still have the same abilities to eat and behave as they have for millions of years...Fancy That!

"I am not saying this to be mean but I seriously think that you can harm your dogs by doing this, I guess its lucky that they are large dogs and not small...I couldn't imagine a small breed eating this diet."

We can agree to disagree on this. :) My pets are in no way shape or form being harmed, and they are in excellent condition. The statement on their condition came from my vet who has been in practice for almost 16 years, and I do believe he has more knowledge than you do to make comments as to the state of their health.

Brace yourself for this one, it's gonna throw you for a loop! Small breeds are more than capable of eating this diet!!! I have friends who feed it to toy breeds and cats all the time with no problems, though granted you do have to find smaller products, say tiny chicken necks instead of massive turkey and pork necks. Here's the one that is really gonna make ya gasp...:D I have weaned one litter of Mastiff/Dane mix puppies (pregnant female we fostered, she had 3 puppies) straight from momma's milk onto RAW. :D At 3 weeks old the little ones had their first taste of meat in the form of smashed chicken necks....lol and they are so cute at about 5 weeks old pranceing around with their prized chicken neck or various things like they just hunted it down themselves. :D If you would like more information of weaning litters onto RAW or prehaps a list of Great Dane breeders and exhibitors and their websites who also raise their dogs on RAW from day one, please feel free to PM me and I will gladly give them to you. Then you can see I'm not the "only crazy person out there feeding my dogs raw meat and trying to kill them " LOL :lol:

Overall Sammy, I think this topic between the 2 of us should be dropped. I have provided you with information and backed up my claims with valid research, scientific studies and information..... though you have yet to substantiate any of your claims or accusations you have made to me. I do believe we are at a stand still and obviously niether of us is willing to backdown. People come to these forums for education, sharing ideas and general chat about their beloved pets, not to watch two people argue continueously. :D I hope you enjoyed the facts and information I provided you with, and seriously hope you plan to continue your education before making anymore outrageous claims about what others do or do not do to their pets. I look forward to chatting with you in the future, Have a great evening!!!

kerryclair
10-27-2006, 11:50 AM
Those of you on raw diets (and again I am NOT saying I agree or disagree with this, I really do not know enough to make an educated call EITHER WAY), but to banish those that think your dogs are all infested with maggots and such, can you post some pictures here in this thread of your dogs? :)

countrychic10
10-27-2006, 11:51 AM
Sure thing Kerry. This is Blue, my beautiful (not to mention healthy :P) Weimaraner I rescued from a kill shelter a little over 3 years ago. This picture was taken after he had been on RAW for a couple months..I'm not the best with a camra but I think he looks fine despite my poor photography skills. :D

countrychic10
10-27-2006, 11:55 AM
Here is Brutus, my big sweet Great Dane pup...lol I love them at this age because they remind me of foals...tall and leggy...Also fed RAW :D

countrychic10
10-27-2006, 12:02 PM
A pic of Blue intently watching a ball. :) Sorry, can't figure out how to edit things like red-eye and blurryiness, but I would love to asure anyone concerned that these photo flaws aren't caused by a RAW diet. LOL :lol:

And then a pic of my 3 year old son, Clayton and Brutus when he was 13 weeks old. :D They grow soo fast.

countrychic10
10-27-2006, 12:21 PM
Okay..this is the last of the pictures.

First is Brutus napping with his buddy (my aunt's cat, also fed RAW) at her house..of course he's dirty and on her furniture! :roll:

The 2nd is Brutus and my brother's boxer puppy Reno. By the way, Reno's breeder is a RAW feeder so his momma ate RAW and that's all he's ever eaten.

And the last is Brutus ready for dinner...complete with the bib my 3 year old put on him. LOL

Sammy
10-27-2006, 12:32 PM
Well Countrychic...I do believe we have come to a stand still on this debate as you have said. I do have to say I did throughly enjoy the debate with you... And though I do not think I will be changeing my opinions any time soon, your babies are beautiful and look like they are in great condition.

Your Weimaraner looks alot like my Lucy with the exception that she is more on the tan side than he is. You said you rescued him from a shelter?? Blows my mind that people actually throw out angles like this.

By the way..we are in the process of switching Lucy's food from Science Diet (it's been giving her gas and runny stools) to Canidae, which she loves!! Thanks for the kibble recomendation Rita. :D

kerryclair
10-29-2006, 07:24 PM
Great pics, thanks for sharing them!
Nice shiny coats too...