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Mjarabrab
10-04-2006, 05:27 PM
HI- I'm new and can see already that this is a great place for questions, share information, and just talking about our pets. I do pet sitting, and am taking care of a newfoundland, very spoiled, but young dog.
Here's his diet,and in all my years of having dogs, this one's a first.
for one meal:
1 raw egg
half cup dry dog food
half cup raw turkey meat
2 RAW chicken wings
two tablespoons olive oil
1 cup cooked brown rice
1 cup grated carrots
half cup cut up cucumber

and , when he's done........an "After Dinner Mint"
I'm Mia's new mom, and I think a little rice, an egg once in a while, and the carrots are great, but I"m not sure about the rest.
This dog eats this twice a day, for every meal, he's huge, but I'm curious what you all think of the ingrediants, the next time I see my vet, I'm going to ask her..
thanks
Barbara

ritabooker
10-04-2006, 05:55 PM
Sounds like a combo of raw and commercial diet.
The raw items are great nutrition for a dog, but I
wonder how many eggs a week a dog should have.

Have recently read about raw diet and for the first
time, I begin to understand why raw food is so good
for a dog. I was kind of nervous when Abby had her
first raw chicken neck, but there were no repercussions.
She still has mostly commercial food with raw on the side.

Great job with Mia...she is a sweety-face.

countrychic10
10-04-2006, 07:14 PM
Agree with Rita on this. Seems to be a combo diet. Though it actually seems to be more of a BARF diet and commercial diet mix, as RAW is usually refering to a diet of meat, bones and organs and limited veggies ect. ect.. BARF diets usually include more veggies and grains than RAW diets do, and tend to be a bit more complicated. Of course everyone has their definition of each. LOL It can get quite confusing at times. I am a RAW feeder and do not feed any commercial foods to my dogs, so I of course see nothing wrong with what he is eating, though I do find it a bit extreme and a lil too complicated for my taste. I would also be concerned about feeding raw eggs that often. I feed my dogs whole raw eggs (shells included) but I don't feed them that often. Usually an egg or 2 twice a week. Personally I wouldn't be giving him 2 raw eggs every day. JMO though. :D

Mjarabrab
10-05-2006, 04:55 AM
Thanks to both of you, I"m seeing my vet soon, so I'll ask her, and I'll post here what she says. I agree, too many eggs, but since it's not my dog, he's here for a week, I"m doing what they want me to.
I did however, take the idea of the grated carrots, a tiny bit for Mia, not every day, and a bit of the rice, which I think is good, for my lab also.
Michael my african grey loves it too, so fresh vegetables are always good, but this is too much I think, and for every meal, way too much.
I'll post what my vet think when I see her,
thanks
Barbara

SalemWitchChild
10-05-2006, 10:26 AM
I agree with the others that it is a mixture of raw and commercial. However my understanding of Raw is that you are not suppose to mix them both because a commercial diet goes through the body slower than the raw. If mixing both then I think it can cause bloat? Don't quote me. I'm just trying to remember what others have said about it. :? I do know it's not good to mix both. :wink:

kerryclair
10-07-2006, 11:57 AM
But the raw diet includes such things as raw chicken wings?? What about uncooked chicken and the bones from teh chicken getting in their throat? Is this really safe?

ritabooker
10-07-2006, 04:27 PM
Advocates of the raw diet swear that the chicken necks and wings are safe as long as they are uncooked. It is the cooking process that makes the bones brittle. As with anything else, though, it is good to consider whether your dog is likely to swallow a knuckle whole. Most dogs will knaw on these rather than gulp them down. When they chew up the other type bones, they get great nutrition from the marrow and cartilage.

To me, the most impressive part of the raw diet is that the nutrition is preserved by the lack of cooking. Also, the dogs' ancestors were carnivores and they did not cook. I would not have thought raw was a good idea, but so much that I have read about it makes sense. The main premise of the book I have recently read is that the digestive system of the canine has not evolved much...so if you accept that the rest is easy.

Abby looks lady-like, but she eats much worse stuff than raw chicken, but only if she gets the chance. However, the author I have been reading recommends only the freshest meat and if possible, it should be organically raised. Also, the dogs digestive system can handle some stuff that ours cannot.

Each person has to decide for themselves if it is safe.

SalemWitchChild
10-07-2006, 04:37 PM
Personally I would worry about bacteria. And I know Kota wouldnt do good on it. She has a problem with people food. It makes her have the runs. :(

ritabooker
10-07-2006, 06:39 PM
This definitely has to be a personal decision. I am too lazy to make the
commitment to a totally raw diet. I found a link to a review of the book I have been referring to, in case anyone wants to check it out. It is very interesting stuff: http://home.earthlink.net/~affenbar/

Mjarabrab
10-08-2006, 07:44 AM
THanks everyone, being as how this is not my dog, it's what I"m feeding him. But for mine, I won't be giving them the raw meat. It's not so much the idea of it, but I question how long it's been kept fresh at the store. OUt in the wild, they would be hunting, and it would be fresh to eat, but it's us humans that keep it in the freezer, refrigerator, and at the store.
Mia loves the grated carrots, and once a week I do give them an egg mixed up in the dry. I"ve also heard that about the bones being ok if not cooked, but I again question the freshness of the whole thing, weather it's chicken, or whatever.
thanks for all your thoughts,
Barbara

kerryclair
10-09-2006, 03:31 PM
Rita,
Now I am not arguing here, because I do not have enough knowledge or education on this issue to know enough one way or the other. But I do question this one thing...

>>Also, the dogs' ancestors were carnivores and they did not cook.<<

I hear that sort of thing often in various fields of animals...and my answer to that is always the same...that our dogs, and our horses are FAR from what their ancestors were. Hundreds of years of domestication have greatly changed who they are, what they can eat and their medical histories. (for good or bad!).

Anyway, appreciate the discussion here..

Barbara - forgot to tell oyu that was one of Mia's FAVORITES treats!! I was so surprosed! A whole, uncooked carrot - she would demolish it!

petsalive
10-09-2006, 03:45 PM
I called Holistic veterinarian who is an acquaintance of mine and he said that in his humble opinion (now he is a HOLISTIC vet) NO dog today should get raw eggs - even if they are directly from a farm they will contain (and their shells will contain) e-coli and salmonella (and other nasty organisms) Have any of you ever seen a chicken's 'butt' - ours are free range and super healthy and there is no way I would eat anything that came out of that 'end' without cooking it.

Re: Raw bones - hogwash - have you ever deboned a chicken breast? Those bones are SHARP and all it takes to kill your dog is ONE LITTLE SPLINTER. Better safe than sorry. If you must feed raw chicken (again the problem with salmonella and e-coli - debone it.

Our dogs are GENERATIONS removed from wild dogs and our dogs are not started on raw meat. Their intestines by the time WE decide to feed them these FAD diets are not used to eating this way.

TURKEY???? Please let her know (the newf's owner) that I believe that even RAW enthusiasts will agree that the L-Carnitine in turkey is not recommended for dogs.

Re: two eggs a day. The veterinarian told me that NO dog should have more than ONE cooked egg a week - less would be preferable.

This poor Newfy.

Mjarabrab
10-09-2006, 04:21 PM
You know what, the thing about the chickens butt made me laugh, but it's true!!!!!!!! I also think that common sense should tell us that ya- in the wild they did hunt,but so what-
I don't know why these people are so extreme about this dog, ironically, he's a 150 pound Newfoundland, out of control, aggressive, and no manners, so focused on taking care of him like he's almost a person, not a dog.
I didn't know that raw eggs were bad, but now that I read that, it makes
sense. I am going to start boiling a couple, and they can have one or two a week.
Kery, I grate the carrots for little Mia and she loves them, and also,
in the truck the other day, I was eating an apple, and here she is, looking, so I gave her half, and not one tiny bit was left after she was done,, she loved it!!
So many boxed, dry expensive treats in the store, when all a dog really wants is a carrot, an apple, or a tiny peice of cheese??
This is a good topic, should we start one about horses?????
Barbara

petsalive
10-09-2006, 04:29 PM
Hey Barbara,

Just a heads up - apple peel is dangerous (and pretty undigestible) for a dog and the 'pits' are poisonout as are grapes (you can find out more information about this on the ASPCA's site. Avocado and artichoke are deadly as well, as is chocolate and although the RAW feeders don't agree so is garlic and onion.

Apples also contain a ton of sodium and Mia is tiny so maybe you want to limit her apple treats to no more than 1/2 apple a week. NO GRAPES or raisins though.

We occasionally cook beets (you can buy them diced in a can as well - just pour off the liquid they come in) and the dogs absolutely LOVE them.

Little bits of banana are good too but don't start giving her so many 'sweets' that she will turn her nose up at her regular food. Also don't give treats at the same time every day - better to make them a 'surprise' for particularly good behavior.

Kiss her for me please.

Mjarabrab
10-09-2006, 04:50 PM
HI there, thankyou for that She ate not quite half, it was the rest of what I didn't want, and no peel cause I ate it, so lucky I guess. I've had dogs for years and years, but didn't know about that or grapes. Barney loves grapes, and I just heard that one a couple weeks ago. Is it some dogs get sick, because it never bothered Barney, or my rottie Chauncy??
I belive you, maybe I"ve just been lucky, but won't be giving them that anymore.
Thanks!!
And speaking of food, theyjust had dry food with a bit of baked chicken,
yummy!
And what did I have for dinner???????? French vanilla icecream with a ton ton ton of chocolate sauce, yummy!!!!
Barbara

petsalive
10-09-2006, 05:06 PM
Gosh - you sound like me - I am a celiac so no longer get 'natural sugars' from carbohydrates and have developed a killer sweet tooth. I have been known to pick up a half gallon of ice cream, a bottle of Ubet syrup and eat the WHOOOOOLE thing (this after setting up my steamer to steam veggies and rice <G>). I used to only eat Edys but have recently and accidentally discovered that Cumberland Farms makes a flavor called Cafe Coffee Chip and it is BETTER than any Edy's flavor (especially with the Ubet syrup).

Back to the dog foods - her dinner sounded very appealing. Today I bought a few cans of Merricks Grandma's Pot Pie for a very sick and picky eater we have here. All it took was ONE TBSP mixed in with 1C of dry food to convince him to eat. It looked so good that if it didn't have gluten in it I might have tried it myself!

I just thought of another 'no-no' food for dogs - asparagus (I'm kind of happy about that because I would hate to share it when I cook it)

ritabooker
10-09-2006, 10:11 PM
"I hear that sort of thing often in various fields of animals...and my answer to that is always the same...that our dogs, and our horses are FAR from what their ancestors were. Hundreds of years of domestication have greatly changed who they are, what they can eat and their medical histories. (for good or bad!)."

The first dog biscuit was marketed around 1860, but commercial dog foods
did not come into widespread use until about 1940. That isn't really enough time for much in the way of evolution of the canine digestive system to take place.

I don't own horses, but what I see being fed around here is legumes(alfalfa), grains and grasses of one kind or another. It seems legumes, grains and grasses would have been the main diet for horses hundreds of years ago, too.

They are far from what their ancestors were through breeding, but I don't think their guts have changed much.

ritabooker
10-09-2006, 10:17 PM
"Re: Raw bones - hogwash - have you ever deboned a chicken breast? Those bones are SHARP and all it takes to kill your dog is ONE LITTLE SPLINTER. Better safe than sorry. If you must feed raw chicken (again the problem with salmonella and e-coli - debone it. "

I was referring to necks and wings, in my post. They don't splinter if they are not cooked.

celtechfarms
10-10-2006, 05:45 AM
A horses digestive system hasen't changed hardly at all, and anything other then natural grasses can really mess them up, in a bad way, with major bouts of colic. Equine nutrition offered at U of G is an awsome course, explains alot of that, and even goes into the dogs digestive system. As for semmenila (sp) and other raw mean issues, a dogs digestive system is designed to handle things like that, what its not designed for is the worms found in raw meat. Thats why most dogs can get into garbage and eat the left over raw hamburger that went bad and not get sick. They have digestive emizimes we don't and they can handle the rancid meat.

Its also why wolves can eat an animal carcasse that is days old and not be effected by any of the time that has passed to cause the meat to go bad.

countrychic10
10-10-2006, 08:22 PM
LOL, am I the only strictly RAW feeder on this forum? LOL...sort of lonely here :D I am starting to think I am :D I personally do not agree with mixing RAW & kibble due to slower digestion rates. RAW passes through the system in about 4-6 hours...much faster than kibble. Though I do know several people who have fed a mixture and have had no problems. To each his own I guess.

celtechfarms, I do agree with you on the digestive systems of the animals. I have seen Blue get a hold of 3 day old road kill and eat it and never had one single problem accept for the fact that it completly grossed me out :? The canine digestive system is much more acidic than ours and is built to handle all manner of things that would make a human very ill. If you were to look at the digestive system of a wolf and look and Blue's they would be the same.

In reguards to bone issues, COOKED bones splinter and are dangerous. I do not advocate feeding cooked bones and never will. My dogs eat meat, bones and organs...and on occasion vegetable matter (not an every day thing in the diet though) I have never had an issue with bones and niether has my grandmother who has raised Great Danes on this diet for almost 14 years. My dogs love the boney chicken backs and if you go and look at their stools after they eat a boney meal you will very rarely even see any bone...the acids in the stomach break them down. And on the rare chance I do see a bone piece it is almost completly dissolved and no bigger than a grain of rice. I feed almost any bones of smaller animals. Many RAW feeders advocate giving large bones (such as weight bearing bones on large animals) but I do not. I believe there is too much risk of chipping teeth by feeding such large bones. The bones they do eat though come from chicken, rabbit (both of which I feed whole carcass's quite often) pork necks, ostrich and emu necks, fish on occasion (fresh salmon heads are a fav in my house) and things of that nature....anything larger than these I do not give. I know several people who feed items like chicken wings, but due to the fact my dogs are very large I do not. I feed them items that are large enough that they lay down and chew them up instead of swallowing whole.

On the topics of eggs and turkey. I feed whole, fresh raw, eggs to my dogs. They usually get 1 or 2 a week (if that much). The issue with salmonella and e-coli just isn't an issue in my book. Though everyone is entitled to their opinions. Dogs are able to handle a very wide range of things that would be terrible for people...their digestive tracks were designed to handle all sorts of bacteria with no problems. I also feed turkey...usually turkey necks are the product of choice here. They eat one or 2 turkey necks once or twice a week.....Also, I do know several RAW feeders who give garlic and onion (why I have no clue, I see no useful place for it in the diet) and they swear it is good for them. Personally, I disagree and do not feed either of these items to my dogs.

All in all, I believe if anyone is even considering this diet, they need to do extensive research before starting. There is sooo much conflicting information out there. I would like to add though, that RAW is not a FAD!! It is the diet canines were designed for and have thrived well on for thousands of years. Just because we domesticated the dog and changed the appearance doesn't mean we changed the entire make up of the dog. If it is okay for wolves to eat it, why not our pets?? If wolves and dogs are soo different from one another and have evolved completly different digestive systems (as some ppl claim) then why is it dogs and wolves can succesfully breed with one another?!?! When you strip away the odd things we have bred into our domestic pets, such as extreme size, odd head shapes, variety of coats ect. ect. they are still canines, and are still designed to do what canines have done for generations. And exactly how did dogs eat before we came up with packaged meals for them?? Dog food has not been around for as long as the dog has been in our care. Personally, I will not ever consider a commercial diet for my dogs ever again. I am so thrilled with how well my dogs are doing. Even though I do not feed kibble, I do have to say that I am pleased with the steps many manufactures are taking to supply a better product....there are some brands out there that just make me want to hurl when I read the ingredients.

Arazante
10-11-2006, 12:15 AM
I think the real difference is that dogs are DESCENDANTS of wolves. They are not wolves. It's like saying all humans are monkeys when we're not. We just descend from them, but we are of a different species. They haven't been for thousands of years. Our domesticated dogs do not hunt like wolves. Dogs are very dependent now. If they are left on their own, they eat trash. That's what strays do. They don't go out in the woods and hunt down rabbits or deer because they don't know how. They also don't live in packs like wolves.

Dogs that are most similliar to wolves are dogs like huskies and malamutes, which owners do tend to keep in packs for working like sleigh pulling. They still don't hunt, though. I don't understand some RAW dieters. I've looked up information on it (for cats though) and many seem to have such biast against kibble because it has animal fat, animal organs and vegetables like corn in it yet these RAW feeders feed their dogs animal organs and vegetables. Is that not confusing? :?

I don't enjoy researching about RAW diets. I feel like I'm running in circles with people telling me this kind of food is dangerous and this kind of food isn't. I feel if something is so conflicting like that, it's simply not worth trying or taking advice to if people can't seem to agree one way to feed is safe or not.

I think it's nice people are feeding their dogs something more filling than kibble if their doggies are picky eaters. But some of the meal set-ups are just ridiculous and make me question the real benefit of the diet when people say they can't stand feeding their dogs all these disgusting products with junk ingredients yet they feed their dogs pointless filler foods that a wolf wouldn't eat in the wild.

In the future, I probably will give my new dogs some fresh meat a few times a week. I don't think I'll try to bide my time with making anymore than that, as I don't see the point of adding anything else but meat in a dog's diet.

kerryclair
10-11-2006, 10:53 AM
Well I am not sure what breeding together really has to do with the way they can eat. I mean lots of species can breed together, but I do not think that is a good comparison really as to how similar something is. I mean I can breed with a french guy, but hell if I can eat all that creamy sauces they douse their food in (grin). Anyway, good points all around, good discussion here, glad no one has been scared away yet and we can still debate this issue...

>>A horses digestive system hasen't changed hardly at all, and anything other then natural grasses can really mess them up, in a bad way, with major bouts of colic. Equine nutrition offered at U of G is an awsome course, explains alot of that, and even goes into the dogs digestive system.<

Yes, so true! I see people feeding various things to horses all the darn time and they really have not changed all that much, it's true. They do best on that which they would eat in a normal pasture and not all these mashes and pulps we're making for them. My horses mainly live on green grass or hay. I give a little pelleted grain, but that is mainly to develop a routine for them, to come in at night or in the morning so I can check them over, make sure everyone is ok, etc. I don't believe that they NEED it. Now maybe some older horses or sickly ones DO need more care, but in the wild those would be left behind or killed by predators, so that is an exception in our domestic world - to help them along with some extra feed or supplements. In general, a healthy horse does NOT need anything other than grass or good quality hay.

K.

ritabooker
10-11-2006, 10:56 AM
countrychic: Good point about the speed of digestion. I had not thought about that. It is just coincidence that when Abs gets a chicken neck and organs, or other raw meat, that will be the meal.
She does not get a meal of kibble for about 12 hrs. after that. I wonder if this is why she has not had problems so far. Don't feel all alone for being the purist about raw diet. I have learned alot from you as well as my other reading.

Arazante: I agree, with you...if you are going to add something raw, meat is the most important one. That is basically how I do it. The raw bones are really beneficial for the marrow, and cartilage, so I feed those too. I found it confusing at first, but the more you read the more things make sense. One probem with organs in kibble is that sometimes they use organs too much, when the main ingredient should be meat. Our dogs have always hunted rabbits, gophers, weasels and rats and mice on our property. We do not encourage it, but they do know how to hunt.

ritabooker
10-11-2006, 11:01 AM
"All in all, I believe if anyone is even considering this diet, they need to do extensive research before starting. There is sooo much conflicting information out there. I would like to add though, that RAW is not a FAD!! It is the diet canines were designed for and have thrived well on for thousands of years."

Thanks for making these points.

countrychic10
10-11-2006, 11:21 AM
Dogs and wolves are more similar than any of the other canines are (i.e foxes, coyotes..) Their DNA is so similar that they are able to successfully breed with one another. And no, it isn't like saying Humans and Monkeys are the same. Humans and monkeys can not interbreed with each other. Our DNA is very similar, but not so much that mixing the 2 of us is possible.

On the issues of strays...what about the Carolina Dogs?? Or dingos for that matter?? Yes, those breeds are acient and have lived the way they are now for a long time, BUT domesticated dogs often get thrown into that mix and live, HUNT and thrive just as they do. You can see evidence of this in some of the dogs that loose that "dingo" look and end up with floppy ears or spotted coats..Many researchers are even having a difficult time just finding "pure" dingos or Carolina dogs because of the fact that they have mixed so heavily with with domesticated dogs. (Good show to try and catch is National Geographics "Hunt for the First Dog") So yes, given the chance and correct environment most domesticated dogs are able to revert back into this state of living and are able to thrive. (of course I am excluding many breeds due to the fact that man has messed with them too much, such as bulldogs or other extreme breeds)

I do believe Huskies and other such breeds are very similar to wolves...mainly because they have retained the wolfish apperance that we have bred out of several other breeds, and they also tend to think with more of a "pack mentality". Other than outward apperance though, I do not believe they are any more "wolfish" than any other breed...strip down the outside apperance of these dogs and they are all biologically the same as my Weimaraner.

I will have to agree with you on the fact that some RAW feeders are flat out crazy! Everyone has their own opinions and thoughts on how it should or should not be done, and quite frankly some of the things people come up with is frightening. And yes researching RAW can be a pain in the butt. When I first started my research I was looking at what other people did and what THEY thought..after almost going mad with all the conflicting information, I started researching canines in general and researched nutrition as a whole and came to my own conculsions. I personally feel comfortable with the way I do things, have seen results in my grandmother's dogs (for over a decade) and feel very secure in the fact that I have educated myself enough to be able to sort through what is bullsh** and what is fact. I have since met several people who believe the way I do and find it refreshing to talk with them. I believe in using common sense and keeping things uncomplicated with this diet. But I will also not be one of those people who go crazy telling every kibble feeder how wrong they are. Although I do not feed kibble, I do believe that a dog fed on a diet of quality kibble will live a very full and healthy life...we see evidence of this every day. In all honesty I have seen dogs live to a ripe old age on a very poor quality diet (i.e Old Roy)....just goes to show canines are resilent animals and are able to thrive in most circumstances. Either way, I am happy with the results I have, my vet is shocked but pleased at the progess poor Blue has made since the switch and I 100% believe in what I am doing. Which all in all, those are the things that matter. My only wish with this diet is that I didn't get so much flack from people who don't even feed it...LOL my pet peeve is the comment I have recieved from my father-in-law that this is a FAD DIET! I don't call kibble that and don't believe it is fair for others to do the same to me. I guess the moral of all of this is, educate yourself, choose what is best for you, and don't bash others simply because what they think or do is different from your way of doing things. Everyone of us loves our pets and we all try to do the best we can by them, no one method is right and no one method fits every single persons life or way of thinking.

countrychic10
10-11-2006, 11:48 AM
LOL! I guess several of us were replying to this topic at the same time.

Kerry, when I stated the fact that dogs and wolves could breed I was simply trying to point out that even though there are differences, they still have the same body systems. Dogs have been changed by man in many ways, but not so much so that they are not able to do what canines originally did..By the way..LOL love the french guy comment!! :lol:

Rita, lol thanks for being a slight word of encourangement :D Your post are always so refreshing. :D As far as the combo diet you feed, I know several people who do feed this way and have never had any issues. And to be quite honest for some people they can not commit to a full RAW diet due to lack of time or whatever. Some people believe that mixing the 2 at the same time can be dangerous, personally I do not believe this. If my dog can eat a 2 day old road kill with no issues I don't see how the 2 mixing would hurt him. JMO though. But if I ever was to feed both, I wouldn't mix them for the simple fact that Blue has always had stomache issues and the faster digesting RAW food works so well for him..no more liquid stools and no more vomiting :D I think your method of feeding is just fine.

As far as what people add to their RAW diets..lol I have seen some very odd things, and some dangerous things. Personally I feed based on the prey model. They get alot of meat, a fair amount of bones and some organs...on average my 2 get about 1 to 2 lbs of organs a week (keep in mind though my dogs are very big..you wouldn't do this for a smaller dog). A good rule of thumb with the RAW diet is if the stool is runny, you need more bone in the diet...if it is way too hard or looks white you need less bone. I do even on occasion feed veggies too. Usually sweet potatos or carrots. But when I feed these items I usually put them in the blender. In order to get the most nutrition from veggies they need to be ground...thats why herbivores have flat grinding molars...by grinding the plant matter they break up the cellulose thus releaseing all the valueable nutrients. Dogs do not grind their food like this (they crunch it up enough for it to fit down the throat comfortably) and their molars are not flat like a herbivores..their molars were desgned to crush bone, not grind plant matter.


This link has been posted before but I thought I would post it once more.
http://www.eastwooddanes.com/VitaminsAtoZ.html

My dogs get every single nutrient they need from meat, bones (which contrary to popular belief are a very important part of a RAW diet) organs, some eggs and the occasional veggies they get.