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View Full Version : Goldie's pups aren't doing so good.



JustAnotherDogLover
06-16-2006, 10:04 AM
Well, Goldie's pups are 16 days old today. Two of them have already died.

I am bottle feeding all but 3 of them. One that I wasn't bottle feeding was the biggest of the litter. He is more than double the size of the rest of them. He walks. His eyes are open. He died last night.

I pulled them all out of the crate last night, as I do every night. Most of them are probably only 6 ounces, very limp still. And none of the rest of the litter have open eyes. One looks like he tries to walk but his back legs don't support his body.

I called AC the other day when the first one died but they never called me back. I called yesterday, no call. Called this morning, I'm sure I'll get no call. They'll probably tell me "oh well" (in the sense that there are enough dogs in this world so what's one less). That's their motto anyway. But the fact is, I can't do this. I have babies (almost 2, 5 and 6) and seeing dead puppies is not something I want around them. Sure, maybe this is just some fluke gene in their body that's causing it. But I don't want to have to keep barrying puppies because of it. And frankely, I don't have the money to have the remaining 9 tested for anything.

They aren't being squished by the mother, I'm certain of that. It's possible they are being underfed because they cry NON stop! The only time they stop crying is after they receive a bottle, though they don't drink a whole lot (other than Junior, they drink maybe an ounce). It's not too hot or too cold where they are being kept--it's a good temperature in here and there is a fan in front of the crate so it's comfortable inside too.

I don't know what to do. They are SOOO tiny still and they cry all the time!!

smiffy
06-16-2006, 11:29 AM
i'm so sorry for you. a litter of pups on their own is work enough but you have two litters and all your others needing you too.

i wish i knew how to make it easier but all i can give you is what i do - keep plugging away and it will come good :) i'm sorry i know its not much and if you were near i would have been there every day (til you kicked me out lol) to help.

i went to your web site to try to find an address i could send a gift to - sappy i know :lol:

how is goldie doing? is her diet supplimented enough? i think thats where i would look at this stage. after everything she has been through already she is going to be low right now too and like you she is probably nearing exhaustion.

have hope hon i will be thinking of you xxx

JustAnotherDogLover
06-16-2006, 12:55 PM
Well, typically for my dogs, she's not big on dog food. Most of the dogs I get prefer table scraps--but that's probably because of the area I live in (big animal "HATRED" here--one guy got a warning for having a 12 week old puppy tied to a high porch with a shoe string. The fear was the puppy would fall off the porch and strangle himself on the shoe string being used a collar/leash. The guy pulled a gun on the ACO claiming it was HIS dog and no one would tell him how to take care of HIS dog). So that's the way it is here. Most dogs only get table scraps. Many (like my neighbors dogs) get water only when they get fed (once every other day).

Anyway. So she's not big on dog food. AC said to feed her the cheap crap from the Dollar General (3 bucks for a 20 lb bag if that defines cheap any better). Not even meat by-products in this food. They brought a bag with her and are wondering why, after 3 weeks, it's still not been open. I'm sorry, but I refuse to feed it to her. Currently they are all eating Pro-Plan but I'm thinking about changing it again. Beef used to be the top ingredient but now it's ground yellow corn, then chix by-products, water for processing and then beef and beef by-products. There's got to be something better in this town to feed my dogs. My options are K-mart, Walmart and PetSmart if you guys have suggestions (and of course local grocery stores).

She does eat though. Not a lot of the kibble but I offer big cans of wet food. The main ingredient is water for processing but then it's beef and chicken. Not great, but better than "Tommy Boy" CRAP AC wants me to feed her. Yuck.

I'm sure one of the pups will pass by morning. He's TINY TINY TINY and next to nothing to him. Maybe I'll pull him out and try to dropper feed him. He did lap up a little bit from a dish, but not a whole lot. I suppose if I could get him to lap up even a little bit every hour it's better than nothing. At least I've tried.

I'm just exhausted. Yeah, I know she is too. It's SOO hot, even in the air conditioning (it's 101 right now and only 2:00).

celtechfarms
06-16-2006, 05:19 PM
My question s what are you feeding them. Is it a puppy formula suppliment or is it just straight milk. Are you bottle feeding, if so are they taking to the bottle, have you tried wrapping it in something soft and furry so it feels like mom to get them more willing to feed. Also are they showing any other signs or symptoms, like runny noses, runny eyes, cough, anything like that?

JustAnotherDogLover
06-16-2006, 05:30 PM
They are drinking a puppy supplement formula. I'll have to ask what it is. They sent over a big tupperware container of it with hand-written directions on mixing. Some take the bottle and some don't. The ones that wouldn't take the bottle were willing to lap it up though. It's the bigger boys that will lap it up--they wobble walk and have their eyes open.

No, no runny noses, no runny eyes, no caughing. The one that died first seemed like it had the hiccups all the time. But otherwise, nothing wrong with him.

celtechfarms
06-16-2006, 05:40 PM
A friend of mine sent me this;

10 oz. of canned evaporated milk or goat's milk
never cow's milk
3 oz. sterilized water (baby water or boiled water) this is not needed if using goats milk
1 raw egg yolk
1 tablespoons regular mayonnaise (optional)
1 cup of whole yogurt (avoid skim or fat free) I use organic stuff from the health food section of the store
1/2 Tsp Karo Syrup or Corn Syrup, but the white/clear corn syrup, not dark
blend it all in a blender on LOW...less bubbles the better, or you can whisk it by hand, keep it cool and it's good for up to 7 days
warm it up to feed like a baby's bottle
it comes out thick, so you usually have to make the holes in the nipple bigger


She thinks that perhaps what they are getting is not nutrisious enough, and they will need to have feeding often if mom isn't feeding them. Unfortunatly growing pups need lots of food. Then just feed them until they are full. Hope that helps.

She thinks perhaps they are suffering from hypoglycemia...muscle twitches and spasms could seem like hiccups. You should probably try to put a drop of clear corn syrup on the pup's tongue, it seems to help, but a hypoglycemic pup is not getting enough from nursing, and again needs to be supplemented be sure not to substitute honey for the corn syrup, that's unpasteurized and could make them very sick. But this is all only by our own experiances and by no means should be taken over a vets recommendations.

Oh and believe it or not burp them after feeding.

kerryclair
06-16-2006, 08:11 PM
Why not take them to the vet?

JustAnotherDogLover
06-16-2006, 09:03 PM
I'll give that recipe a shot. I've been checking on them religiously today and offering formula. Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of spasms too. I've never seen such "jumpy" puppies before. One last night when I was watching them almost looked like he was having a minor seizure (sp?), he just twitched and twitched. But he calmed himself down and made it through the night.

Kerry.....I can't take them to the vet because they aren't my dogs. I have to have permission from Animal Control, which I don't. Otherwise, I can pay for the visit out of my own pocket (which is $30 per dog, there are 9 surviving pups and the mother). Plus I have to pay for all the blood/lab work and I'd have to pay for the medication. But I can't give them the medication without permission from Animal Control--which I don't have and can't get. Pretty sad, huh?

I'm wondering what's the point of my fostering if they don't really care if they live or die anyway?

smiffy
06-17-2006, 03:17 AM
thats the worst part of fostering- having to wait for permission to treat.

i was thinking maybe their dietary needs are not being met i think pups are just like our babies in that some are hungrier than others.

see if goldies diet can be supplimented which in turn will help boost the pups.

JustAnotherDogLover
06-17-2006, 07:43 AM
I don't know what's going on. I just left a message with the police chief and said he needs to get ACO out here and get this dog cause I can't do it.

Another dead puppy this morning and she was FINE when I went to bed. There was nothing wrong with her and I did not have a single concern with her ever since she was born. This makes no sense to me.

JustAnotherDogLover
06-18-2006, 01:54 AM
I called AC this morning again and left a message for the supervisor. She called me back and told me to bring Goldie and the pups in and she'd have their vet look at them. Evidentally Goldie has a major uterin infection and a bladder infection. Vet said that's probably the problem. So she's on anti-biotics now. She did blood work and said she'd have that by Monday. I'm picking Goldie and the pups up tomorrow.

smiffy
06-18-2006, 02:16 AM
FANTASTIC!!! thats great news, i hope the vet gets to the bottom of this :( my fingers are crossed xxx

JustAnotherDogLover
06-18-2006, 01:14 PM
What a weekend......is it over yet? lol

Okay, so I dropped Goldie and the pups off yesterday morning at Animal Control for their on-call vet to take a look at everyone. Our AC is BAD here and they were totally out of room at the shelter and had me put her and the pups in the bathroom cause they didn't have any kennels or cages!!!!

So ACO called me last night about 9 and said the vet had just taken a look at her and to come pick her up today anytime before noon. haha, I was there at 8 sharp! So I'm walking towards the bathroom and put my hand on the door knob and some guy goes, "NO NO don't go in there that dog is MEAN--she growls at everyone who walks in there, I'm afraid she'll bite, don't open the door!!!" So I chuckled and said thanks for the forewarning.

So I opened the door and got down on my knees and Goldie bout knocked me over as she jumped up in my lap and started licking my face and hands, her tail wagging back and forth as hard as it could go so you could hear the "clank clank" as she's hitting this metal door frame with her tail. She was so happy, like she knew she was going home. The guy who said she was a mean dog was standing there, jaw on the floor out of amazement. Even their "top" ACO who never gets growled at was growled at by Goldie and here I go just walking right in there and get playfully attacked by her.

Anyway..........just had to throw that in there.

The vet was on-call and didn't have much to work with as far as equipment/machines go so she said as far as she could tell it appeared that Goldie had a bladder infection which was probably brought on by the MASSIVE uterine infection which was probably also the reason for the mastitus. Their vet thinks she did not finish giving birth, that she might still have at least 2 pups inside. She said it was really hard to tell because her uterus was pretty swollen and "squishy" so the vet couldn't actually feel any lumps--it was just a mushy mass (her words). The reason I never thought about a uterine infection was because she wasn't having any odd colored or smell discharge. But according to this vet when she did an exam inside the vulva there seemed to be either a puppy or placenta "stuck" inside the canal so that's why there wasn't any discharge. Hearing this, I'm surprised she hasn't appeared to be in labor or acting like she was pushing or anything like that. Goldie has been very peaceful and calm in the last couple weeks so her being sick never even crossed my mind.

Anyway. So the pups and Goldie got an antibiotic by injection yesterday and Goldie got an injection of something (forgot the name) that they are hoping will help break up what's left inside the uterus and be easier to pass. And Goldie is on 500 mg a day of amoxy and they want me to keep trying to get her to nurse so the pups can get some of the antibiotic that'll be passed through the milk. So we're supposed to watch her this week and see how she's feeling and if the pups are being fed properly by her and if she passes the dead pups inside of her. If she doesn't have luck this week with everything, they are going to go ahead and do a total hysterectomy --take EVERYTHING out-- and then bottle feed until the pups are strong enough to eat on their own which their vet thinks they could be ready by 4 to 5 weeks (because they are so tiny right now she says most are at least a week and a half behind proper development).

She's doing REALLY well today though!!! She's been jumping on me, wanting to be petted. OMG she SCARFED the food down when she got home, it was the first place she went when she came in the door--straight to her food and water. And then she ran around out in the yard for a good while, searched the house for the dropped cereal bits she gets every morning. Didn't find any (we hit McD's for breakfast) and went back to her food dish. Then she went back outside and I have a rocker on the porch so I went out too and watched her fling an old Care Bear around the yard. I came in about 10 minutes later and she came flying up the stairs and bolted under my feet so I dropped the can of soda-pop I was carrying, coke went fizzing all over the floor of my dining room. I walked into the kitchen to get a paper towel and by the time I got back she had licked it all up off the floor--so now she's on a sugar high (thank god it was caffeine free coke--LOL).

So anyway........she is doing really good today and I'm glad they finally took my concerns seriously and had her checked out. I know they have a lot of other dogs to deal with but something wasn't right and the reason for my fostering is to make sure things are okay with mom and pups. I was trying to do my "job" and their not acknowledging me made it difficult. It's sad that 3 pups had to die before they accepted my concern as genuine but at least it looks hopeful for the surviving 8.

So I'm happy about that.

smiffy
06-18-2006, 02:23 PM
i'm glad she was seen but really the pups who died were a blessing in disguise - if they hadnt have died she wouldnt have been seen the infection missed then the risk of pyometra too.

plus now she has less when her infection clears she will be able to deal with her reamaining pups better.

i have an annoying trait of thinking 'silver lining' but in our job sometimes its so sad we have to.

glad she is home and on medication now :) things can only get better for her now surely xxx

kerryclair
06-21-2006, 06:00 PM
JADL, I understand that you might have to pay for them at the vet, but I could never watch dogs - in my care - suffer like this. I would take them to the vet, pay for it, suffer from the learning experience and never work with this particular rescue/shelter organization again.

I can not understand how you can just watch them die and not seek medical attention because they have not given permission.

I'm really disturbed to read all of this.

This place you work with and this AC need to be reported and you should document everything but these animals definitely should have been taken to a veterinarian. Perhaps if you called around and explained hte situation one of the local vets would have been willing to work with you.

JustAnotherDogLover
06-22-2006, 07:39 AM
Well Mom and pups look good. They are walking and eyes open. I'm going to offer some wet food later today and see how they do on it. They are also going in to be dewormed this afternoon. Yeah!

On a sadder note, the runt finally died the other night. He seemed rather "weird" anyway. He didn't move much, seemed like he never cried or (attempted to) bark. The vet had concerns with him last weekend too. So his passing wasn't any more of a surprise then him having lived this long was.

Kerry--I understand where you're coming from and in different shoes I probably would have said the same thing to a similar post. It's not that I was just sitting around doing nothing watching them die, I called AC just about every single day making some kind of complaint or another that something had to be done. I can't treat them without permission; I could get into a lot of trouble--even if it was a vet recommended or prescribed treatment. There was nothing I could do without getting myself into trouble. I've already been spoken too regarding the food I'm feeding her because it isn't what they will feed her when she's returned to the shelter. I do understand your anger with the situation, I'm just as angry. But there just isn't anything I can do.

kerryclair
06-22-2006, 05:42 PM
I am not angry.
I'm just sad.
Deeply sad.
Not any anger at all.

petsalive
06-23-2006, 01:08 AM
JADL - I think you need to spend some of the time you spend here searching for information on the web about animal care.

A uterine infection is PERFECTLY OBVIOUS and perhaps if you recognized it and told the ACO she would have been seen earlier AND all those puppies would not have died.

Additionally you mentioned that she had mastitis and ANYONE with even a small amount of knowledge should know that puppies should not be allowed to nurse on a bitch with mastitis - the reason they were fading and dying was that they were drinking 'pus'.

I know you mean well but the animals in your care, without the opportunity to go to a veterinarian are not that much better off than they would be in a shelter.

Puppies should not be started on solid food at 16 days old (which is what I figure they are). Puppies also should not have antibiotic shots and if they do get them you should be giving them acidophillus or plain yogurt to conteract the effects of the antibiotics on their stomachs. Dogs have 'good and bad' bacteria in their intestines and unfortunately in an immature pup the antibiotic will kill both of them leaving the puppy without the reserves to digest its food (another reason they should not be put on solid food). The vets have a product called gastrogard which you should get now (even if you have to pay for it yourself - NO animal should be deprived of medical care for ANY reason). Ask the vet how much to give them and get it soon (as in today).

If she is not nursing them and you HAVE to feed them give them the puppy supplement you were using and add Gerber's baby rice cereal for 'bulk' but make it 'soupy' NOT solid (you may have to keep adding some of the formula). Do not make it 'warm' - just room temperature as puppies that age can't let you know if it is too hot for them and it doesn't need to be hot.

Please reconsider whether you should be fostering if in an emergency you cannot afford to care for them.

Kerry is right - this is a desparately sad situation.

celtechfarms
06-23-2006, 05:48 AM
I think considering the circumstances you did an awsome job, I think I would have had them to the vet anyway, but I understand why you didn't. Don't let this dishearten you, you did an awsome job with the resources you had and these pups were lucky to be with you instead of a cold drafty unsterile kennel where they could have picked up god knows what infections. Its sad that you lost these babies yes, but you saved many and in rescue loss is something one never gets use to, but faces all too often. You did a great job and hopefully from here on everything will go just fine and you will get the vet support you need.

JustAnotherDogLover
06-23-2006, 07:56 AM
PetsAlive--I have one dog, a female, who was spayed when she was 4 months old for this exact reaons. I don't want puppies. In fact, when we adopted our dog from animal control we adopted her as a full grown adult. It wasn't until her first visit to the vet that he told us she was just an extremely large puppy, that animal control was wrong in her breed and I had to take a crash course in raising this particular animal. I have never owned an unspayed female dog and I never will. Goldie is not my dog, I think there's some confusion here. She is not mine. I am not a foster home for the animal shelter. They had so many pregnant dogs and no place for them to go. This is the first (and will be the only) time I take in a pregnant dog from them.

I wasn't the one who gave them the antibiotic either--the vet did that, with Goldie's "owners" permission. I have no say in any kind of medical care she or the puppies receive. I can't even give them anything for fleas or worms without getting in trouble for treating a dog that doesn't belong to me (one foster home gave the puppies flea baths at 5 weeks old and was fined $1000 for doing it).

Why would a uterine infection be obvious? She was walking around the house, ran around the yard, did not have any discharge, did not have a bad smell to her. She ate a good 20 cups of food per day. She chewed on bones. She cleaned the puppies. She did not act "funny". Now, maybe that's obvious to some people, but for me--someone who has never owned an unspayed female and doesn't know this particular dog not-pregnant or nursing--why should I have known something was wrong?

I am also not the one who said the puppies should nurse despite her mastitus either. Again, that was the vet's recomendation. She wanted them to continue nursing so they got some of the antibiotic the mother was getting. I assume the animal shelter knows the risks involved with everything but this is their choice, not mine. All I'm supposed to do is keep them until they are old enough to go back to the shelter where they will be given 14 days to be adopted before they are euthenized.

I do not want to be fostering but it's not about the money to care for them. I'M NOT ALLOWED to care for them. I cannot make any decisions for these puppies or the mother unless I adopt them from the shelter (which, I don't want to do). If I think they need medical care of some sort, I have to call animal control who will have to make the decision if they want the dog seen by THEIR vet--who only comes in every Saturday. I even have to drive the 20 miles to the animal shelter every weekend so their vet can deworm the puppies--something I could easily do at home in less than 5 minutes. But their rules state that only their vet can offer medications or treatments--whether it be fleas, worms, obvious infections or even mange!! I'm just not allowed to do it.

And if it makes you happy, I've already been fined $250 for feeding Goldie Pro Plan instead of the Tommy Boy they sent with her.

petsalive
06-23-2006, 08:27 AM
You have addressed none of my suggestions (gastrogard, yogurt, rice cereal) but you have made a statement that I find impossible to believe. They do not have the right to 'fine' you $250 (unless you signed a contract that stated it) for feeding a better food. If the REALLY did I would like the phone number of the ACO and I will get it back for you.

What will happen to Goldie when you send the puppies back to the shelter?

Oh btw - the only cure for a uterine infection is a spay (which you call a complete hysterectomy) and if they intended to keep her alive she should have had it done.

Ask the shelter if you can place them and if you can we will take mother and babies here.

JustAnotherDogLover
06-23-2006, 11:20 AM
I will suggest the yogart to AC tomorrow when I take the pups in for their 3 week dewormer. It's the vet's decision on if she thinks it's neccessary or not.

As for spaying, that is planned for tomorrow if the vet doesn't think Goldie has made any kind of improvement on the antibiotics. Which is also why we have started offering solid foods--because if they spay her tomorrow, they will not be able to nurse. In fact, Goldie will not even come "home" on Sunday morning when I pick up the pups.

Once they are all returned to the shelter, they will be given 14 days to be adopted. If they are not adopted, they will be euthenized.

I can (and have) listed her and the pups as needing homes in various newspapers and on websites. I cannot "give" them away though. All I can do is tell people about them and when they will be returned to the shelter and then urge people to go there and adopt them from AC. One ACO said she was trying to get in touch with a rescue group out of Atlanta Georgia to see if they'd accept at least the pups if not mother too.

Our Animal Shelter is absolutely horrible. And it's not so much them as it is the owners in ths town. In the last 30 days, the Animal Shelter has had dropped off or have picked up a total of 900 dogs and cats. It's not uncommon for them to get 20 to 40 dogs in one day--most of them right now because people are going on vacation and can't take the dog or don't want to take it, don't want to leave it at home (which is probably best) or refuse to pay boarding fees while they're gone.

And then you have cases like Goldie. She was taken in as a puppy and stayed in the same home for a couple years before she got pregnant. The owner didn't want to deal with the puppies so she surrendered her to Animal Control (which is "free" to do around here).

This town needs some kind of leash law. It needs some kind of spay/neuter program so more people have the surgery done (most vets here charge upwards of $250 for females and only if they've received all of their immunizations, never had puppies, aren't in heat and were recently groomed). And then they keep females for observation for 3 days at $45 a night. So to spay a female less than 6 months old, a person is looking at $300 if it's had all it's immunizations to date; males are around $200. Around here, you're lucky to hold a job where your pay is more than minimum wage. People don't have $300 to spay their dogs so this cycle of mixed-breeding continues. I understand animal control's lack of....concern? for Goldie, her puppies and all the rest of the females and puppies that they see daily but it still doesn't make it right. You are right, they probably aren't very concerned with whether or not she or any of them live. They really don't care. I don't want to say they are simply doing what's "right" by allowing her to have the pups because I myself don't believe that. I don't know......maybe they care just a little bit? As much as they have to so they look like at least they sorta kinda tried?

I don't know.....it's pathetic around here. They came to me with her because their foster homes all said no, they wouldn't take her in (or so this is what they tell me). I see why they wouldn't now. I won't do this again, that's for sure.